October 10 Utah ExMo Meeting

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Talking Doctrine – Part 5

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From the Mailbag (17 Points of the True Church)

forever-stamps by samantha celera (Flickr)Please pray for me as i am trying to leave mormonism. My husband is very active in church and he sent me this. What do you think.

Thank you.
Connie

FROM THE BIBLE: 17 Points of the True Church of Christ

[1] Christ organized the Church (Eph 4:11-14)
[2] The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)
[3] The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets (Eph 2:19-20)
[4] The true church must have the same organization as Christ’s Church (Eph 4:11-14)
[5] The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10)
[6] The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18; Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)
[7] The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)
[8] The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)
[9] The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
[10] The true church must teach that God and Jesus are seperate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)
[11] The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)
[12] The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4; Ex 28:1; 40:13-16)
[13] The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
[14] The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)
[15] The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
[16] The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16&29)
[17] “By their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matt 7:20)

Hi Connie,

We will definitely pray for you as you seek God’s truth. It is often a difficult journey from Mormonism to saving faith in the one true God, but no one travels that path alone. “And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6)

The 17 Points of the True Church that your husband sent you has circulated within Mormonism for a very long time. The Mormonism Research Ministry website discusses this list in “Examining the ’17 Points of the True Church.’” At the bottom of that page you will also find links to a 3-part Viewpoint on Mormonism radio broadcast examining the 17 Points. You will find another helpful written evaluation at “Alpha and Omega Ministries Responds to 17 Points of the True Church.”

Without repeating a lot of what you will find at the above links, as a brief overview, let me offer this. The 17 Points purport to come from the Bible. If you take each point and look up the passages cited (I encourage you and your husband to do this!), you will find that the list loses much of its impact. Many of the Bible passages cited don’t seem to relate in any way to the claims they are supposed to support; many of the Bible passages are stripped from their context and used in ways the biblical writer did not intend; and many of the Bible passages are presented as imperatives though those imperatives are absent from the Bible itself.

For example, point #2 says, “The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23).” The verse cited says this: “For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.” Nothing here speaks to the name of the true church.

Point #5 states, “The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10).” In its context, this Bible passage is all about Jesus, not about the church. Here God compares Old Testament priests with the “great High Priest” Jesus (Heb. 4:14), explaining that just as the Old Testament priests identified with the people they represented (Heb. 5:1-3) and served by God’s appointment (Heb. 5:4), so too Jesus became High Priest at the Father’s appointment (Heb. 5:5-6) and was identified with His people through suffering (Heb. 5:7-10). When understood in context, this Bible passage says nothing about the church or its claim to divine authority.

Point #6 states, “The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18; Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13).” This is stated (as are all the others on the list) as an imperative, as though it is a command from God. But none of the Bible passages cited include a command for all-volunteer ministry. Let’s consider the Bible passages provided in the 17 Points list in their context.

In the Acts 20 passage Paul notes that he didn’t want the money or clothing that belonged to members of the Ephesian church; rather, he himself provided for his own necessities, and also for those who were with him. He modeled the Christian commitment to help those in need (the weak), encouraging the church to remember, “It is more blessed to give than to receive.”

In the John 10 passage, Jesus is identifying Himself, teaching that He is the True and Good Shepherd. He talks about thieves and robbers and hirelings who care only about themselves; when trouble comes they desert the sheep — they cannot and will not save the sheep. But Jesus, the True Shepherd, loves the sheep and will lay down His life for them. This is about Jesus; it has nothing to do with whether clergy should be paid for their service.

In 1 Corinthians 9 Paul talks of his desire and commitment to preach the gospel free of charge. This is Paul’s personal conviction, not a command for the church. Paul makes this clear in his preceding remarks when he argues that ministers of the Gospel are entitled to material blessings from those whom they serve. Paul writes, “In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel (1 Corinthians 9:14).” So in context we find that, rather than a command for an unpaid ministry, Jesus commanded the opposite!

Among the other points in the list are some that are subjectively self-fulfilling, like point #13, “The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7).” Any church can make any claim it wants. Many churches/religions/sects claim revelation from God; this does not mean that they actually receive revelation from God, nor does it mean that their claim is evidence that they are “the true church.”

So many of the items on this list are things that happened or were mentioned in the New Testament, but were not commanded or intended to be normative. The issue of unpaid ministry is an example of one of those, as is point #8, “The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17).” In Acts 8 it is recorded that Peter and John did indeed lay hands on the Samaritan believers, yet in other places in Acts we find the reception of the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands (Acts 4:31; 10:44; 11:15). With this sort of approach to the scriptures, the 17 Points list could just as well include Acts 9:8-9 and insist that the true church must require new converts to spend three days fasting in blindness. It would be a grave misuse of the Bible to make such a claim; yet the 17 Points list is built on the same sort of biblical misrepresentation.

You asked what I think of The 17 Points of the True Church of Christ. I think it is a futile attempt (among many others) to make Mormonism sound biblical, while in reality it is far from it. Mormonism (as well as the 17 Points list) begins with an unbiblical concept of the church (i.e., that it is an organization) and strays far afield from there. For a biblical look at the church I invite you to read “What is the Church?” by Matt Slick at Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry.

Again, Connie, I encourage you to always read and study any Bible passage in its greater context. Christian author Greg Koukl is fond of saying, “Never read a Bible verse.” That sounds radical! But check it out in context: “Never read a Bible verse. That’s right, never read a Bible verse. Instead, always read a paragraph at least.” You might find his STR.org blog post on this topic helpful.

Thank you for your email, Connie. Please let me know if there is anything more I can do for you. May you sense God’s presence beside you as you continue your journey, and may His presence give you strength and peace.

In Christ,
Sharon

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Talking Doctrine – Part 4

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Talking Doctrine – Part 3

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Talking Doctrine – Part 2

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Mormons, Take Courage

In February 2015 a small Facebook group of former Mormons was asked, “What is the #1 or main reason you left the LDS Church? What started your journey out of Mormonism?” This is what they said:

TempleWrongWay“Discovering that it was false. I actually watched a speech by Lyndon Lamborn which opened my eyes.”

“Going to BYU, and then my bishop dad excommunicated my brother,…the Mormon church has torn my family apart.”

“I missed Jesus and knew I had journeyed far away from Him.”

“Research on [Joseph Smith], and his occult gnostic activity and involvement.”

“Started watching Mormon to Christian videos on YouTube, couldn’t fathom how they came out of the Church and had a greater faith in Jesus.”

“It was the old testament for me.”

“My [husband] started watching this Christian pastor on TV…”

“The lies I found out that [Joseph Smith] told…especially the one where he said that he had done more than Jesus Christ himself!”

“It was realizing that becoming a God and Goddess of our own worlds meant having multiple gods!”

“There were a few [Bible passages and Mormon teachings], while still LDS, that didn’t make sense… [and] Finding out about [Joseph Smith’s] polygamy (and polyandry).”

“Found the BIBLE IS TRUE.”

“Reading the New Testament was a game changer for me. It put me in the awkward position of having to choose the teachings of Joseph or Jesus.”

“It all started for me when my wife started watching Doris Hanson… The one thing that really got me was Joseph Smith’s boast. After I read it in History of the Church I was out.”

“The Bible–I finally (after a LOT of time) saw that it and what Mormonism taught contradicted each other.”

“I ran from the LDS church convinced I was not worthy to be a member, since I could not gain a testimony of the deeper doctrines…”

“It was a long process that started after I attended their temple. My gut kept telling me it was not from God…”

“One big speed bump: Sir Alan Gardiner’s classic text Egyptian Grammar.”

“What started my journey out of the LDS church was going through the temple…I was so confused…I had a bad feeling in the temple.”

hugThough this is certainly not a scientific study, a common thread that runs through many of these responses is a personal hunger for God and His truth. While still Mormons, these people wanted to be closer to Jesus–they “missed Jesus” and they discovered ex-Mormons “had a greater faith in Jesus.” These people wanted to be loyal to Christ–they were deeply troubled by Joseph Smith’s boasting that “he had done more than Jesus Christ himself!” and they were compelled to “choose the teachings of Joseph [or] Jesus.” These people saw the truth in God’s Word–they “discovered the Bible is true,” and they realized that “the Bible…and what Mormonism taught contradicted each other.” These people longed for God, but they couldn’t find Him in the Mormon temple—after they experienced the temple they “had a bad feeling” and “knew it wasn’t from God.”

When engaging in evangelizing Mormons we often ask, “If the Mormon Church wasn’t true, would you want to know?” It’s a sad reality that many Mormons do not want to know. But the former Mormons quoted above did want to know, and they had the courage to seek and find the truth (Luke 11:9).

Why? Why did it really matter to them? Why not focus on all the good cultural things that Mormonism has to offer and leave the rest alone? In the words of another former Mormon from the Facebook thread:

“[My husband] found God in the pages of the Psalms and recognized his need for a Savior was not being met by the LDS Church. No matter how faithful he was to the Church’s teaching, he knew it was not transforming his inner sinful self. He was still a sinner until Psalms showed him why and who could save him forever.”

This is why. Everybody needs a Savior, and there is but One who can transform our sinful selves into something beautiful. Only One can forgive our sins. Only One can cleanse us. Only One can make us “alive in Christ.” And that One is not found in Mormonism. Yet, amazingly, Jesus stands at the door and knocks, willing to receive all who abandon false beliefs, false prophets, and false gods as they turn to Him (1 John 1:9, 2:1).

May God grant you, Mormon friends, the courage it takes to seek Him.

“As a deer pants for flowing streams, so pants my soul for you, O God.”
–Psalm 42:1

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Talking Doctrine – Part 1

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Commandment-keeping and God’s Grace

ThrowbackThurs

It’s Throwback Thursday!
The following blog article originally posted at Mormon Coffee on September 26, 2006.

——

My October, 2006 edition of Ensign just arrived. I wish more of my Christian friends who think Mormonism is abandoning its heretical past would take closer notice of what the LDS Church is still teaching; for instance, in an article titled “Plain and Precious Truths Restored.” On page 53, Clyde Williams, BYU assistant professor of Ancient Scripture, emphasizes the importance of commandment-keeping if a person hopes to achieve God’s grace.

Elder B.H. Roberts of the Seventy (1857-1933) explained how the unconditional nature of the Atonement in regard to Adam’s transgression and its conditional nature regarding men’s personal sins is a doctrine “peculiar to ‘Mormonism’…and is derived almost wholly from the teachings of the Book of Mormon. In that distinction the beauty and glory of the Atonement, the balanced claims of justice and mercy shine forth as no where else, even in holy writ, — much less in the uninspired writings of men. It may be regarded as the ‘Mormon’ contribution to views of the Atonement of Christ, for it is to be found no where else except in Mormon literature.” The perfect relationship between the atoning grace of Christ and the obedient efforts of mankind is powerfully stated by Nephi: “We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23). Furthermore, we are invited to “come unto Christ, and be perfected in him.” When we deny ourselves “of all ungodliness,” then and only “then is his grace sufficient” for us (Moroni 10:32).

Think about it. Then and only then is his grace sufficient for us. There is nothing really new here that I haven’t heard before. Robert Millet and Joseph Fielding McConkie said virtually the same thing when they also coupled 2 Nephi 25:23 with Moroni 10:32. They wrote, “Indeed, it is only after a person has so performed a lifetime of works and faithfulness — only after he has come to deny himself of all ungodliness and every worldly lust — that the grace of God, that spiritual increment of power, is efficacious” (Joseph Fielding McConkie and Robert L. Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon 1:295).

My question is, do these men really think they have “denied themselves of all ungodliness and every worldly lust”? If not, it seems clear by their own admission that the grace of God is not efficacious in their lives. If they think they have denied themselves of all ungodliness and every worldly lust, then I think they need to re-read 1 John 1:8, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

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Theosis: “The Mormon view is altogether different.”

LostFoundThis has been going on for far too long. BYU Professor Robert Millet, as part of his continuing apologetic for the Mormon doctrine of exaltation (i.e., faithful Mormons becoming Gods), perseveres in asserting that this doctrine did not originate with Mormonism, but was taught by the early (Christian) church fathers. Dr. Millet said as much in the 1998 book, Latter-day Christianity: 10 Basic Issues. He said it at a 1998 Church Educational System Fireside (as reported by Richard and Joan Ostling in The Power and the Promise: Mormon America, 312), and more recently, he said it as a guest lecturer at Fuller Theological Seminary. According to Mormon blogger Jana Riess who attended the class at Fuller, Dr. Millet

“was willing to be vulnerable and admit it outright when he didn’t know something – a humility which, when we’re talking about the speculative frontiers of Mormon theology, is a pretty important quality. ‘I don’t know what to do with that’ was what Bob said in all honesty about the first half of the uncanonized Lorenzo Snow couplet that ‘As man is; God once was.’ Mormons don’t focus on that, and we’re not at all sure we believe it.

“The second half, however – ‘As God is, man may become’ – is still alive and well in Mormon belief, and Bob showed how the idea of theosis or deification has roots in orthodox (and Orthodox, big O) Christian theology, quoting heavyweight Church Fathers like Justin Martyr, Ireneaus, Athanasius, and Augustine.”

Dr. Millet is not the only Mormon to make this assertion, of course. Mormon author Stephen Robinson has suggested it in at least a couple of his books; Mormon apologist Daniel Peterson called Joseph Smith’s restoration of this “authentically ancient Judeo-Christian doctrine” a miracle; the Mormon Church notes the teachings of the patristic fathers in its 2014 essay “Becoming Like God”; and rank and file Mormons comfortably repeat the claim that the Mormon doctrine of exaltation is believed by Orthodox Christians (for example, one commenter on another blog discussing Mormonism noted, “you have taken an idea that each Mormon will get his own planet, yes it was said by an authority of the Church. But no one counts that particular statement as a full explanation of our understanding of Theosis. As you well know Orthodox Christians have a similar understanding of that of Latter day Saints.”).

trinity-1170x380In fact, while some (Christian) church fathers spoke of believers’ “deification,” the doctrine they spoke of (theosis) does not parallel the Mormon doctrine of exaltation.

By way of explanation, Orthodox Bishop Kallistos (Timothy) Ware, Bishop of Diokleia, said:

“It is clear to me that C.S. Lewis understands the doctrine of theosis in essentially the same way as the Orthodox Church does; indeed, he probably derived his viewpoint from reading such Greek Fathers as Athanasius. On the other hand, the Mormon view is altogether different from what Lewis and the Orthodox Church believe.

“Orthodox theology emphasizes that there is a clear distinction — in the current phraseology ‘an ontological gap’ — between God the Creator and the creation which He has made. This ‘gap’ is bridged by divine love, supremely through the Incarnation, but it is not abolished. The distinction between the Uncreated and the created still remains. The Incarnation is a unique event.

“‘Deification,’ on the Orthodox understanding, is to be interpreted in terms of the distinction between the divine essence and the divine energies. Human beings share by God’s mercy in His energies but not in His essence, either in the present age or in the age to come. That is to say, in theosis the saints participate in the grace, power, and glory of God, but they never become God by essence.” (Quoted in Ostling, 311)

Christian theologian Rob Bowman wrote a 5-part blog series exploring the problems inherent in the claim that the Mormon doctrine of exaltation is a restoration of an early Christian doctrine as taught by the patristic fathers. He concluded,

“Joseph Smith’s doctrine of exaltation was not in any meaningful sense a restoration of a lost doctrine of theosis. The doctrine of theosis was never lost, and the doctrine of deification taught by the church fathers was radically different from the doctrine Joseph Smith taught. Joseph taught that God was once a mortal man who became exalted to Godhood, and that we can do the same thing and become Gods of the same nature and powers as our God. The church fathers taught that God is the only uncreated, eternal Being, existing eternally and unchangeably as God, and that he created human beings to become ‘gods’ in the sense that they may be adopted as his children and receive immortality as the gift of his grace.”

It’s very disappointing that the Mormon Church and its representatives continue to mislead people with faulty assertions regarding the Christian doctrines related to the nature of God. It’s disappointing, but sadly, not at all surprising.

For more information on the important doctrine of theosis and continuing unsupportable Mormon claims, see:

Godhood and Theosis by Bill McKeever
Did Joseph Smith Restore Theosis? (Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5) by Rob Bowman
Orthodox Wiki: Theosis

Posted in Christianity, Early Christianity, Lorenzo Snow, Nature of Man, Truth, Honesty, Prayer, and Inquiry | Tagged , , , , , , , , , , | 23 Comments