The latest speculation about Mormon doctrine comes from lawyer turned “apostle” D. Todd Christofferson who spoke about the subject at the April 2012 General Conference, calling it “The Doctrine of Christ.”
In this talk Christofferson makes the following observation:
“In some faith traditions, theologians claim equal teaching authority with the ecclesiastical hierarchy, and doctrinal matters may become a contest of opinions between them. Some rely on the ecumenical councils of the Middle Ages and their creeds. Others place primary emphasis on the reasoning of post-apostolic theologians or on biblical hermeneutics and exegesis. We value scholarship that enhances understanding, but in the Church today, just as anciently, establishing the doctrine of Christ or correcting doctrinal deviations is a matter of divine revelation to those the Lord endows with apostolic authority.”
According to Christofferson, then, Mormon doctrine is the teaching of “authorized” church leaders given by “divine revelation.” He continues,
“At the same time it should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that ‘a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.’
“President Clark, quoted earlier, observed:
“ ‘To this point runs a simple story my father told me as a boy, I do not know on what authority, but it illustrates the point. His story was that during the excitement incident to the coming of [Johnston’s] Army, Brother Brigham preached to the people in a morning meeting a sermon vibrant with defiance to the approaching army, and declaring an intention to oppose and drive them back. In the afternoon meeting he arose and said that Brigham Young had been talking in the morning, but the Lord was going to talk now. He then delivered an address, the tempo of which was the opposite from the morning talk.’”
In a footnote, Christofferson adds that Clark didn’t actually know if the story his father told even happened. So for Christofferson and Clark, an unverified story, perhaps folklore, illustrates the principle that even the President of the Church himself may not always be moved upon by the Holy Ghost when he addresses the people? This is not what those like Orson Hyde said about Brigham Young:
“Some persons say that Brigham does not give revelations as did Joseph Smith. But let me tell you, that Brigham’s voice has been the voice of God from the time he was chosen to preside, and even before. …He possesses skill, wisdom, and power that trouble wise men and rulers. God will make him a greater terror to nations than he ever has been. I will now quote a few passages from the revelations of God as contained in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants:—‘My words shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice out of the heavens, or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.’ Again, concerning his servants—‘Whatsoever you shall speak by my Spirit shall be Scripture—shall be the word of the Lord, the will of the Lord, the mind of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.’ Again, from the New Testament, Jesus says, ‘Whosoever heareth you (whom I send) heareth me.’” (Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses 8:234-235, October 7, 1860)
Which Mormon “prophet,” will they claim, didn’t have the “constant companionship” of the Holy Ghost? If they can’t tell us that, then they can’t say the “prophet” did not always speak by his power.
“Apostle” Moses Thatcher claimed that unlike “hireling” Christians, Mormons speak the truth when delivering doctrine to the “saints”:
“They [the elders of Israel] speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost and not as those paid with a price. A true servant of God is not afraid of public opinion, but will rebuke that opinion if wrong. …I bear to you my testimony that Wilford Woodruff is a prophet of the Most High God. I know that he speaks by revelation. He communes with Brigham Young, though Brigham Young, we say, is dead. Joseph, the great modern prophet since death, has communed with our venerable living leader. Thus are we lead step by step through the inspiration that comes from God and his servants;…” (Brian Stuy, Collected Discourses 2:316-317, November 2, 1891)
Brigham Young was emphatic that neither he nor anyone authorized by him ever taught false doctrine and challenged the world to show otherwise:
“You may ask the question: Has no one Elder in Israel ever taught false doctrine? Yes, but no man has who has been authorized to teach, guide and direct the Saints. Did Jesus, Peter, James, John or Joseph Smith ever teach a false or incorrect doctrine? Not that you or I know of; we cannot find it.” (Journal of Discourses 12:310, November 29, 1868)
“I am at the defiance of earth and hell to put a finger on the place or time that a false doctrine was taught to any one, a wrong taught to any one, or when evil was justified in any one, all the liars and all the lies on earth and in hell to the contrary notwithstanding.” (Journal of Discourses 13:217, July 17, 1870)
This would include Young’s teachings on Adam-god, blood atonement, and the priesthood ban on blacks.
Brigham Young also said that false doctrine, if taught, would be detected by the “saints” almost immediately:
“I can say this for the Latter-day Saints, and I will say it to their praise and my satisfaction, if I were to preach false doctrine here, it would not be an hour after the people got out, before it would begin to fly from one to another, and they would remark, ‘I do not quite like that! It does not look exactly right! What did Brother Brigham mean? That did not sound quite right, it was not exactly the thing!’ … I will defy any man, to preach false doctrine without being detected; and we need not go to the Elders. of Israel, the children who have been born in these mountains possess enough of the Spirit to detect it.” (Journal of Discourses 14:205, August 13, 1871)
What is Christofferson talking about when he says that “It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church?” He gives no specifics, but I can provide examples from Conference Addresses when the speaker gives his opinion — and clearly states that it is an “opinion.” Here’s one:
“In my opinion, there were classes and races, and separation into different groups and conditions before we came to this world, and all are getting what they are entitled to receive here.” (Melvin J. Ballard, Conference Report, April 1915, 62. For a few more examples see Journal of Discourses 1:220, 8:21; Collected Discourses 4:277; Conference Report October 1951, 85)
The Conference Addresses of the Church (from the Journal of Discourses to the present) are full of such opinions. How can you know when these men are giving their opinions? Why, they tell you so.
Christofferson would have members think Church leaders are prone to intermix opinion, speculation and folklore in with their doctrinal teachings without mentioning it, perhaps forgetting that they are (and were) commanded to speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. Wilford Woodruff taught the opposite:
“When the Apostles and Elders of Israel are called to teach you, when they are called to go abroad and to teach the inhabitants of the earth, they are commanded of the Lord to speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and when a man speaks as he is moved upon by the Holy Ghost, it is the word of the Lord, it is the mind of the Lord, it is the will of the Lord, it is Scripture, it is the power of God unto salvation unto every one that believes. If we do not have the Holy Ghost we have no business to teach. But when the Elders of Israel do teach you by the Holy Ghost, you have the revelations of God to you. We have these revelations lying before us for our guidance day by day, as well as the living oracles.” (Brian Stuy, Collected Discourses 2:46, April 6, 1890)
Try to pin down these current “apostles” about how and when Mormon “prophets” and “apostles” did not have the gift of the Holy Spirit, or when their “apostles” were not authorized to teach and proclaim doctrine. They will not give any satisfactory answers. What is the doctrine of Christ according to Mormon Scripture? It is the voice of Christ spoken through his servants by the power of the Holy Ghost:
“What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.” (D&C 1:38)
Since no Mormon audience that we know of ever spoke out against any of the sermons in the Journal of Discourses or subsequent Conference Reports, we can rest assured that these men were speaking by the “power of the Holy Ghost” and were indeed teaching doctrine and scripture unless (as they did frequently) they indicated that they were just giving their opinion.
Thanks for the excellent article, grindael. I’d like to add this quote by Brigham Young printed in The Latter-day Saints’ Millenial Star:
It sounds like Brigham Young was adamantly opposed to allowing mistaken speculation to be spread under the guise of authoritative teaching.
In Europe Christianity is losing ground. Within twenty years Atheists will outnumber Christians in Europe. In 1910 Christians made up 35% of the worlds population. Today Christians make up 32% of the worlds population. The LDS religion is not the only religion to lose members. People are leaving Christianity, especially in Europe, where once upon a time the majority of Christians resided.
Shem
“There is no verifiable record of his having relations with any woman that was not his wife, despite the desperate attempts of critics to prove otherwise.”
Oh boy, you really are living in never never land, are you saying that all the women who said exactly that were lying. Are you saying that When Emma caught him at it she was mistaken?
“He never once uttered a prophecy that was not fulfilled to the last detail.”
What planet are you living on? Would you like me to give you a list of all the FAILED prophecies? I could fill several pages with them. On second thoughts it would take far too long so it might be easier if you gave us, let’s say, 2 prophecies that were fulfilled to the last detail. Come down to Earth Shem stop living in cloud cuckoo land, it’s time to face reality.
In typical Mormon fashion you take a verse from the Bible & twist it’s meaning to suit your purpose. You don’t really understand scripture so you quote James 1:5 in defence of your argument.
Let’s look at who & what exactly he is saying. James is talking to Christians not to people who want to know if the BofM is true, God has provided all the information we need in scripture to determine that. That’s exactly what the Bereans did in response to Pauls preaching. James is telling us to pray for wisdom but what is wisdom? Wisdom is the CORRECT application of knowledge so let’s use the Berean example again. Paul preached the message of the Gospel to them & what did they do? Well, they certainly didn’t pray to know if what he said was true. What they did was to search the scriptures to see if Paul was correct & after putting two & two together they realised that Paul was giving them the truth. In other words they applied WISDOM TO THE INFORMATION THEY ALREADY HAD. Yes Shem, strange as it may seem to your LDS mindset they used Scripture to determine truth. Go back & read my post again, especially the Christian commentary that I pasted at the end. You never know, you might even apply what you learn to the BofM & come to realise that you’ve been following a false prophet for all these years.
That’s all I have time for at the moment, this will be my last post for a couple of weeks so if you’re confused please ask any of the Christians in here to straighten you out.
Shem said,
“He never once uttered a prophecy that was not fulfilled to the last detail.”
I just thought that was worth repeating. This coming from a guy who believes that the Book of Mormon is an asset rather than a liability.
Silkworm,
You said, “The LDS religion is not the only religion to lose members. People are leaving Christianity, especially in Europe, where once upon a time the majority of Christians resided.” Thanks for admitting that the “LDS religion” and “Christianity” are separate religions. So, you are shown that LDS retention rate is one of the worst in the world and that about a third of all claimed members (according to the corporation) would even self-identify as LDS and your response is that Christians are losing members as well? Not the argument at hand, you missed the point.
Shem, just to name one Joseph smith failed prophecy, can you say, the temple in Missouri? That never was built in the time Joseph claimed it would be, and it never will be.
This is simply delusional. Jo Smith uttered MANY “prophecies” that were not fulfilled. So many that it boggles the mind that anyone would ever call him a prophet. He predicted that Nauvoo would become the greatest city in the world, that the “saints” would ‘redeem’ Zion (in Missouri) by September 11, 1836, that his generation (that was then living) would see Christ return, that Christ would return within 50 years of 1840 (1890), and a host of others too numerous to mention. These are the FACTS folks. Shem’s denying this and lying about it from inside the Mormon Bubble does not change them.
The thing is, we can list his false prophecies (as we have time after time) and people like Shem will see it, but just deny that it’s there. They will refuse to believe the truth, and simply close their eyes to it and lie to your face about it. He loves it in his bubble, his Mormon Bubble of Denial. Where he can feel all good about following his “modern prophets” down the road to ruin.
Here is the difference between Christians and Mormons who refuse to take off the blinders that induce them to worship their church organization instead of Jesus. You see, Mormons don’t worship Christ, they worship their Church. Our church is big and strong and will take over the world. You get the idea. But the sad thing is, Christians deal with reality. It is predicted in the Bible that in the last days, the hearts of people will “wax cold”, and they will turn from the right way. This is no surprise. Christianity was never a “numbers game”.
The Father draws the sheep to Jesus and they know his voice. No one can then pluck them out of his hand. The fact is, no one knows when Jesus will return. There are preachers all over TV and in the bookstores that for years have made every kind of blunder and interpretation of events that can be imagined. No “religion” is free from such things, and never will be. The problem with Mormonism (as much as they try to deny it these days) is that they claim they are the only TRUE and LIVING “church” on the face of the earth, and have been since Jo Smith wrote his fantasy about the Nephites. But he forgot all about what Jesus and His Apostles said,
Jesus said,
Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak'” (Matthew 26:41).
After his resurrection, he said,
“It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority” (Acts 1:7).
Paul said,
“Watch, stand fast in the faith, be brave, be strong” (1 Corinthians 16:13).
Numbers are an illusion. Contrast the sleek, rich preachers of today, and the Mormon Suits in Salt Lake City in their lofty towers and fat cat lifestyles with this,
The prophets will be among the people, doing what real prophets do, PROPHESYING. They will have power. What does this have to do with us? We are told to “watch and wait”. Nothing has changed. The Doctrine of Christ, (his teachings in the Bible) will prepare Christians for anything. They will not be deceived by sleight of hand tricks and magic stones in hats. The Mormon Hierarchy cares only about the “image” of the church. In this, they follow the world. There is no way for anyone who says they follow the Doctrine of Christ to justify spending millions of dollars on PR. The body of Christ is not a building. You cannot serve two masters but like so many others, they can’t see the forest for the trees.
Ken,
That is what Mormons try and suppress about Young. He was fanatical about correctly taught doctrine. He read and edited constantly. He approved all of his sermons in the Journal of Discourses, and the Church publications. One time, a sermon was published in England before Young could approve it, and he was livid, because they got something wrong about the Seventies and the Priesthood. Mormons would have you believe that these things just went out there, helter skelter, without any oversight whatsoever. This is dead wrong. These men claimed to be the “oracles of God” and they took it seriously. That is why when confronted with the evidence, the Mormons will run from this kind of a discussion, and instead try and divert it to something else. Not one of them had given any evidence to directly challenge the OP. I won’t hold my breath waiting for any, either. They simply repeat the invented lie that everything has to be voted on to be true. A most ridiculous argument, hatched in desperation and carried on in deception. They can’t own their former “prophets” statements for what they were, because the truth claims of the church would be destroyed. But little by little that is happening anyway, and the only people that will stick with it, will be the deluded who love their participation and importance as a member of the Mormon social club. I think the password this week is “Pey-Le-El”. No touching is now required, except for the handshakes with the kung fu grip.
I had this conversation on Facebook a few years ago, and mentioned the quote that Kenneth produced above. Here is what I wrote about it. Sorry for the length, but I’ve been accused here, of “quote mining”, which is patently absurd. The “Clark” that I mention is J. Reuben Clark:
One Mormon told me:
I will get back to this in a minute. Notice that Clark says, about the verse I quoted (D&C 68):
Mormons selectively accept this today, and add the caveat, only when it is voted upon, which is a modern fabrication. One Mormon said to me,
But that is NOT what the JOD are. What was bound in those 26 volumes, and are only about 30% of all the talks that [George] Watt and others copied down. And then we have the setting, in a Conference Address before the whole Church, where one would assume, would be the prime place where ‘living prophets and apostles’ WOULD be inspired by the Holy Ghost. Also, many of the sermons were published in the Deseret News, and approved by Young and others (which I will show below).
But what is interesting here, is that to make his point, what does Clark do? He quotes Brigham Young from the Journal of Discourses! This happens time after time, and it’s ok for them to do so, but not anyone who is a critic. Again, double standard.
Brigham Young also said:
I’m not going to get into a Canon debate here. I’m well aware that not EVERYTHING is BINDING scripture. But is it DOCTRINE? Robert Millet says it best:
When is the truth irrelevant? Only in Mormonism, when it contradicts their “Correlated truth”. Let’s go back to Young. Here is a great verse that Mormons love to pull out of the JOD:
I’m surprised Clark didn’t quote this one too. But it is what Young says after, that makes my point:
How sad these modern Mormons must be. How sad that they would throw every Mormon under the bus from those days by admitting that these men taught “folklore” and that not one person in the church ever stood up and objected to it. That for years they just let it go. That they would believe the modern pack of lies they were sold about such things. But another Mormon “Authority” says:
So it is not the “authorities” that have the problem, it is those who are not AGREEING WITH THEM. Brigham Young says:
Again and again they call their preaching DOCTRINE. Lorenzo Snow said:
Far from doing that, those sermons were bound up in books and published, with CORRECTION AND APPROVAL! Do Mormons think, that no one read them back then? That they weren’t gone over and that if there was false doctrine or mistakes, Young would have let them go? They tore apart Amasa Lyman for a sermon of his that got in there. Young said NO to my question, in 1865 in the Millennial Star. He was pretty fanatical about this one thing. Mormons repeat over and over that Smith said he was only a prophet when he is acting like one, but he also said:
“I never told you I was perfect, but there has been NO ERROR in the REVELATIONS that I have received.” Many of Smith’s ‘revelations’ were not canonized IN HIS LIFETIME. But that didn’t mean that they were not considered REVELATIONS.
Is what we take from Addresses to the Church, just ANYTHING? Nope. They are remarks in a setting that [according to Mormon “prophets”] lends itself to the spirit of inspiration. Clarifying D&C 68, in the Doctrine and Covenants Institute Student Manual, Section 68 it states:
As President Joseph Fielding Smith taught:
But try having a conversation with a Mormon today and they will tell you that only what is voted upon is “scripture”. Ridiculous! They undermine the whole purpose of their “prophets” so they can deny doctrines that were taught in the same manner, in the same way that their “prophets” teach them today! This is the shell game that people like Alex, Shem, Silk and other Mormons play. Moses Thatcher would comment about inspiration and the Holy Spirit, in this quote from 1885:
Thatcher clearly understood the difference between speaking ‘after the manner of men’ and when he spoke on “the principles of life and salvation’. Mormons today, act like these men were not aware of anything of the kind. Smith himself wrote in 1833 that he knew that he was ‘accountable for every word I say’. (History of the Church 1: 312-316 for the entire letter) Brigham Young also said:
Woodruff wrote on Nov. 16th 1847:
Harold B Lee said,
But not Brigham Youngs? LOL. These guys make people like Alex and Shem look ridiculous. I can go on and on about what is said here, concerning these things. [Mormons today] are definitely mistaken in [their] interpretation of D&C 68, as proven by the above statements, and published material. The sad thing is, you see these things over and over again, and yet [they] cling to [their] false interpretation of what Mormon Leaders say doctrine really is. As for that quote above by a Mormon about the JOD, that is very false. Young was adamant about correct doctrine that would stay in print. From the same published message in 1865 (which was also published in the Deseret News by the way):
What was going on here? Young took objection to Lucy Smith’s book (which he implored the members to burn) and a few of Orson Pratt’s comments in the Seer. Young only says to ‘not teach doctrines you do not understand’. He does not comment about ANYTHING published in the Journal of Discourses, at all. In fact, he doesn’t mention anything else but the Seer & Lucy Smith’s book. And he didn’t like Lucy’s book because she was too revealing about the Smith’s believe in folk magic and that Jo never had a first vision, etc. etc.
Here are a few entries from Woodruff’s journal about how much Young was involved in editing and poring over published material:
Again, the Seer. And this is NOT the current doctrinal stance of the Church. Young is wrong here, (according to the Modern Mormon “Holy Ghost”) totally wrong – Pratt was correct! (as per more ‘modern’ prophets and the modern HG). Why did no one in the room challenge Young? The answer is obvious. He was their ‘dictator’, and according to ALL OF THEM, he had the “Holy Ghost”, just as Mormons claim to have today! So how does this “Holy Ghost” accept Adam God back then, but not now? Mormons won’t tell you, they will simply lie and say that Young taught opinion, which is as false as a three dollar bill.
Again, Young was wrong (about Adam-god) and Pratt’s views are the standard in the Church now. But Young was on him like a flea on a dog.
These are but a few, from quickly scanning through Woodruff’s journals. But there is more. John A. Widtsoe in the preface to Discourses of Brigham Young says,
And who was the chief stenographer? George Watt. In his Book, The Mormon Passage of George Watt (researched by the Mormon author Ronald G. Watt for 30 years, published in 2009), who writes:
So Young, and others were very familiar with Watts and his process, and had full confidence in his abilities, not only that, he taught it to others, who used it to transcribe those sermons, that Widtsoe and others KNEW were accurate, and approved. As R. Watt elaborates,
The JOD was an OFFICIAL publication, and was reviewed beforehand by those that gave the talks:
Here, we see that the sermons were read back to those that gave them, and they were corrected BEFORE they even went into print! Another Mormon Myth that is debunked, that these were ‘off the cuff, sloppy transcriptions, that had many errors’. NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH. Hence we have this statement by Brigham Young, WITH THE FULL MEANING VERY CLEAR:
Those sermons WERE copied and approved by Young, and even corrected beforehand. So, what have we learned? The JOD is a vehicle of Doctrine. They are ‘as good as scripture’, according to Brigham Young. The Mormon leaders understood the difference about speaking as men, and with the ‘Holy Ghost’. Young was involved in every aspect of what was published by the Church, and was very adept at ferreting out false ‘doctrine’. From the above, we see that any who say they are not Docrine are mistaken, and that what Mormons define as doctrine and scripture is in error. Any who say they are not, are LYING
Remember again, what Marion G. Romney told the Church:
Over and over, we have that Mormon Authorities, when they speak before the Church in Conference are giving the “word of the Lord’. The JOD WERE official publications, and were Conference Addresses and qualify as “the word of the Lord.’. Any who say they are not, are LYING.
Grindael, I think the reason that we even have to look at this information is because
today’s Mormons , in order to be more accepting in the Christian community, have had
deny or downplay the importance of many of the teachings promulgated by their past
leaders , and no doubt 50-100 years from now this same type of behavior will be
repeated by those Mormons who will not own up to many of the important doctrines
that are taught by today’s leadership .
The doctrine of Christ ? People have a choice , either stick with what the Bible’s teaches
about Jesus ( and the Father,etc) or accept what Mormon authorities have proceeded
to mix onto that testimony with their description of Him in their ” latter day ” gospel
teaching . We all have a sober reminder of how relevant Paul’s warning in 2 Tim 4:3-4
is for us today , so a decision needs to be made about who to submit to .
I’ve made my choice , and it’s to anchor my beliefs about Jesus in what the Bible teaches
about Him , that safe ground for me in these latter days .
MistakenTestimony says:
August 14, 2013 at 6:26 am
Silkworm,
Thanks for admitting that the “LDS religion” and “Christianity” are separate religions.
I never admitted to this. I used a poor choice of words. I should know better than to do that on this site or on any EV religion site. So from now on I will be careful. I did not miss any point. A few comments back someone, again, mentioned that the LDS were leaving in droves and I did not refer back to that, so my bad. So I put up this information that came from the Internet, which I did not reference, so again my bad.
Silkworm,
You said, “I never admitted to this. I used a poor choice of words. I should know better than to do that on this site or on any EV religion site. So from now on I will be careful.” I am assuming that you mean that from now on you will be obfuscating any differences between LDS and orthodox Christianity. Allow me to ask this, is the LDS Jesus and the orthodox Christian Jesus superficially different and fundamentally the same, or fundamentally different and superficially the same?
Mike,
I’ll be waiting until doomsday to get any coherent reply from the Mormons. So be it. Yes, I can see it now, the grandchildren of our Mormon posters will be telling them they are really quaint to believe in the historicity of the Book of Mormon… and that it was only “folklore” invented by Jo.
@grindael
Have you ever thought of writing a book about these subjects? I laugh when people think that they can argue when you so clearly present the facts in front of them.
Your efforts help many of those lurking. Keep up the good work.
Johnny boy,
The Mormons will not allow themselves to be confused with the facts.
You can lead a mormon to logic, but you cannot make them think.
Johnny,
I am writing a book about Adam-God, which is about half finished. But first, I am finishing up a 100 + page article on a discovery I made last year that has to do with one of the foundational incidents in Mormon History. This discovery is something that no one ever thought could really happen, and it did. (It sheds light on an important piece of Mormon History). It gives me hope that other things are out there, that are just waiting to be discovered. I’ll have this out soon, (possibly next week). I have some things up on my blog, Mormonite Musings, but haven’t published an article in a while, because they are all very long, detailed pieces. But I have about half a dozen that will go up during the fall/winter of this year, on The First Vision, The Kinderhook Plates, Joseph Smith and the “Last Days”, and a few others. Stay tuned. ~Johnny (aka grindael)
Rick
You said “Yet you never come on here and say, no, this is what we believe”
I do this every time I post on this blog, and every time I am ignored so that you can continue with your false accusations and the spreading of false doctrine.
You said “The Problem shem is this, When the prophets say, This IS SCRIPTURE, or THIS IS DOCTRINE, And you guys dont like it or agree with it, then it is their opinion. Funny how that works.”
I have never once denied the doctrine or scriptures of the church. The real problem is you keep wanting to claim that which is not doctrine to be such, and then seem to get angry when you are told you are wrong. I accept every doctrine ever taught, and, quite honestly, I accept some of the speculation as well. But when you misrepresent the doctrine and the scripture than I do disagree with what you say.
You said “According to you, we should never be deceived since our hearts would know if we were being lied to”
This is not what I said at all. Our hearts can be deceived, and frequently are. However, if we yield to the Holy Spirit than we will not be deceived in any significant way. That is the real truth, and that is what the Bible teaches as well as the Book of Mormon.
Fifth Monarchy
Q. Have you prayed and received and answer about all the books other than the BOM that claim to be scripture for example the book of Leviticus or the Gospel of Thomas or the Qur’an?
A. For some, yes, for others, no. I have prayed about the Bible as well as the Book of Mormon. Once God confirmed their truth then there was no need to pray about the Qur’an, for the simple fact that it contradicts the Bible and Book of Mormon. If those books are true than the Qur’an can’t be true.
I know people will respond that the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible, but it doesn’t.
As to the Gospel of Thomas and other such books, I have not yet had the privilege of reading them, and until I do there is no need to confirm them as true. I will likely read them in the future, and at that time I would pray that God enlighten my mind as to their accuracy.
Q. Was it necessary to read those other book before you make a determination on their claims.
A. For most, yes. For those that I already know deny Jesus as being the Christ there is no need, as that conclusion I have sufficient wisdom in myself to reach. The Bible and Book of Mormon I did read first, and I would read any other book claiming to be of early Christian or Jewish origin before I would expect any real answer to my prayers, though I would pray before and after reading them.
Q. What about the other Mormon scriptures is your testimony regarding the DOC of the same nature and as strong as it is regarding the BOM? If not how can you be sure it is scripture?
A. Yes it is.
Q. What about individual parts of the BOM, is your testimony regarding 1st Nephi of the same nature as that regarding Jarom? What about individual sections of the books.
A. If the entire book is true than all parts are true, so yes, though I do enjoy some sections more than others.
Q. I find the BOM to be a mixture of good and some very bad doctrine does that mean that I have a partial testimony?
A. Do you really want an answer?
You said “I am very curious about how relying only on your own private perceptions of the Holy Spirit’s leading to judge the authenticity of scripture works out in practice.”
We don’t rely only on our private perceptions. This is a great misunderstanding. To accept it as being true we rely on the testimony of thousands who have witnessed to its authenticity, as well as the Testimony of the Holy Ghost. But to understand the scriptures we rely on many sources, including scholars, historians, the prophets, and a host of others, with help from the Holy Ghost. To rely on one’s own perceptions is a great folly, for “no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” (2 Peter 1: 20). We must rely on all good sources, and then turn to the Lord for the final determination of the meaning.
Kate
I never once mentioned anything about staggering growth rates or retention. I merely pointed out that we are doing fairly well, and the studies you mention do not contradict this. The simple fact is that we would not be building more buildings and organizing more units if the active membership of the church was not expanding.
Now, I read the link you provided, and it is eight years out of date, and thus its information is no longer accurate. For instance, it gives the average attendance rate in the United States as between 40 and 50 percent. However, in the recent Pew Forum study that I cited it is demonstrated that well over 80% attends at least monthly. Given differences in approach of the studies I think a safe estimate would be more around 70%.
Besides this the quote you give from Armand Mauss is taken from a news article, and thus it would take some digging to verify its origin. That news article was written twelve years ago, and so the quote itself is at least that old, and maybe older. Thus it also is no longer an accurate indication of the current situation.
You information is out of date; though I have no doubt it accurate depicted things then. However, it still does not contradict the fact that even then the church was growing steadily, and has continued to do so.
You said “This is exactly what our Mormon poster do”
I do not do this, and I agree that it is wrong. I do, however, believe in getting to know the prophets before trying to claim to be the ultimate authority on what they taught. I do not think President Benson ever meant that we are not to understand their personalities, but that we should not attempt to magnify the flaws in an attempt to make them sound more human.
Old Man
You said “Oh boy, you really are living in never never land, are you saying that all the women who said exactly that were lying. Are you saying that When Emma caught him at it she was mistaken?”
I am saying that all these claims are made by a second hand witness and are thus unverifiable as being true. The stories of Emma were not told by Emma, but by someone else making this claim. I have not read a single account that can actually be verified in its accuracy, primary for this reason.
You said “it might be easier if you gave us, let’s say, 2 prophecies that were fulfilled to the last detail.”
I could easily do so, and have done so in the past. However, you have ignored everything, twisted his words, and then claimed that falsely what was prophesied and how it wasn’t fulfilled. I am tired of going through this over and over and will not do it again at this time. So, if you want to list just one prophecy, with a reference to when and where it was first spoken and where it was first published, and by whom, then I would be happy to explain to you how it was or will be fulfilled.
Now, Rick mentions the Temple in Missouri, which is one of the most frequently cited, and thus the most frequently understood. Let us look at that for a moment. If Rick is following the usual pattern he is referring to Doctrine and Covenants 84, in which we read the following
“1 A revelationof Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.
2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.
Now, people want to claim that this is a prophecy of the Temple being built in Missouri, but a careful examination of the text proves otherwise. Of course, verse one, being merely an introduction to the revelation, is obviously not part of any prophecy. Verses 2-4 speak of the building up of Zion, or New Jerusalem, and are thus a command, not a prophecy. Verse four is God commanding that the city be built by the gathering of the saints as well as a command to built the temple there.
However, you will note that in verse five it does not specify a particular temple. It says mere “an house.” This is the prophecy, and the only prophecy. What comes before it is not a prophecy, but a command to the saints. The reason this command is given is because a house was to be built to the Lord in that generation. This prophecy was fulfilled when the Kirtland Temple was finished four years and the glory of God rested upon it. A house was built to the Lord in that generation, and a cloud of glory rested upon it, filling it. Every detail of the prophecy was fulfilled just as Joseph Smith recorded it.
Of course everyone here will still try to argue that it wasn’t, claiming that verse five has to referring back to the Temple mentioned in verse 3 and 4. This has to be the case because if you actually acknowledge that this prophecy was fulfilled you might actually have to consider that everything else you have been saying is also wrong.
Well Shem, believe what you want. Put your head in the sand if you want. The truth is, until your church is actually HONEST AND FORTHCOMING with numbers no one will ever know the entire truth. See your church doesn’t tell the truth, it’s dishonest and misleading. Why would they want to hide numbers? That speaks volumes. What harm does it do to put up church numbers openly like the Seventh Day Adventists? As I said before, the numbers game the LDS play are RIDICULOUS. So that aside, I will take your GA’s word over yours. He was asked (in 2012) if members are leaving in droves and he said he is aware of it and he was speaking for the 15 men above him that are aware of it and they do care. He also told Reuters times have changed and “attrition has accelerated in the last five or 10 years.” So what I linked to may be outdated, but according to your own GA, it’s gotten worse since then. That’s enough confirmation for me. You have a really hard time believing your leaders or taking them at their word. You show this time and time again.
My community is 99% LDS so please tell me why they recently had to consolidate wards. They had to combine 1st and 5th together and 3rd and 4th together because they don’t have enough active members to fill all 5 wards anymore. They completely eliminated an entire ward that has always been here! Yep, growing by leaps and bounds. Oh and by the way, we have more people living here now than just 10 years ago.
“I do not think President Benson ever meant that we are not to understand their personalities, but that we should not attempt to magnify the flaws in an attempt to make them sound more human.”
You can’t speak for Ezra Taft Benson or what he meant. He spoke for himself and he said it plainly. I will take him at his word, thanks though.
My last post may be confusing. The church here split 2nd ward and combined them with the others. 2nd ward was completely eliminated.
Well Shem,
I continue to pray for you as well as Alex, FOF and a seldom heard from Ralph.
I guess the Lord has laid the four of you on my heart.
The former Mormons who left here, obviously had some very good reasons for cutting-out. They have told us at least part of their stories and if the reason they left was because someone offended them, my guess it was probably Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and various other leaders who make up the gang that couldn’t shoot straight.
Shooting straight means telling the truth and being forthright. But let’s face it. It would be impossible for Mormon leaders to really be honest regarding the history and doctrines of Mormonism.
In a rare honest moment, one of the current heads admitted that they were losing members at it had set off alarm bells. So why are people leaving? Current Mormons would say that their testimony wasn’t strong enough. I’d say that’s very true if “strong enough” means being able to ignore the obvious facts about Mormonism.
I sense that all of our former Mormon posters had a strong testimony at one time or were at least willing to go along to get along and not delve into Mormon history, doctrine and practice. I also sense that each of our former Mormons went through some real emotional pain as they confronted their worst fears about Mormonism and found them to be with merit.
I remember one former Mormon who use to post here telling me that he left the LDS church because he just got sick of trying to defend it. His personal integrity wouldn’t allow him to do it anymore.
I have a firm conviction that God will draw those to Himself who He has appointed to eternal life. I don’t know how it works but I believe in His sovereign will and His divine plan.
OOPS! This was a very poorly worded sentence.
“The former Mormons who left here, obviously had some very good reasons for cutting-out.”
Try something like: “The former Mormons who post here……………..”
I just got home from three intensive days of training teachers prior to the start of school and my brain needs chocolate.
I was thinking about an article someone could write for MC titled “Lies Mormons Tell Themselves”.
It would probably best be written by one of our former Mormons because they probably have a few inside falsehoods that don’t make it out of the wards but are used for “faith building” exercises among the faithful.
Anyway, here are some whoopers that we hear, especially on Mormon Coffee.
*Joseph Smith DID NOT have sex with those women he called wives.
*Joseph Smith NEVER made a prophetic prediction that didn’t come true.
*Brigham Young was just speculating when he taught his Adam-God theology.
*The Utah LDS church is not losing members in large members.
*The BoM is a true accurate historical account of a lost tribe of Jews who traveled to the Americas in magic boats and became the fore-runners of the American Indians.
*The BoA is an accurate translation of some ancient parchments; completed by Joseph Smith.
*What the Utah based LDS church believes and practices is what the first century Christian church believed and practiced.
*Of all of the 100 or so sects of Mormonism, the Utah LDS have the true Mormon restoration.
Well I could keep going but I’ll let some of our other posters add to the list.
Bill McKeever did a great job on debunking Joseph Smith’s story about having the golden plates and being put upon by some nefarious individuals and how he, Smith, had to put the plates under his arm and run away. Well Bill did a little calculation of how much those plates would have weighed and guess what, the feat wouldn’t have been possible.
Mormons of course in full Joseph Smith fantasy mode, would count it all as another one of the prophets miracles. Actually it makes for great Mormon story telling and is definitely faith promoting. That is of course if you are thinking Mormon.
One of the all time great Mormon story tellers was Paul Dunn. He would regale Mormon groups, especially the youth, with his fantastic accounts of his life. Mormons are preset by absorbing all of the Joseph Smith’s myths to buy into any story told with great enthusiasm.
“[Paul H. Dunn told a] tale about his best friend, ‘who died in his arms during a World War II battle, while imploring Dunn to teach America’s youth about patriotism.’ Then there was the riveting account of how God protected him as enemy machine-gun bullets ripped away his
clothing, gear and helmet without ever touching his skin.’ Another inspirational yarn explained ‘how perseverance and Mormon values led him to play major-league baseball for the St. Louis Cardinals.’ Unfortunately, none of these stories were true. Dunn’s ‘dead’ friend was still alive; only the heel of his boot was ever touched by a bullet; and he never played for the Cardinals.”
– Abanes, One Nation Under Gods, p. 427
Some of the stories Dunn told:
1. “The sole survivor among 11 infantrymen in a 100-yard race against death, during which one burst of machine-gun fire ripped his right boot off, another tore off his ammunition and canteen belt and yet another split his helmet in half – all without wounding him.”
2. “[Dunn kept] a Japanese prisoner from being butchered by GIs bent on revenge for the torture slayings of American soldiers.”
3. “[Wrestled] a dynamite pack off a child kamikaze infiltrator, saving himself and the child.”
4. “Survived being run over by an enemy tank, while others were crushed.”
5. “One of only six individuals in his 1,000-man combat group who survived a major battle, and was the only one of those six not wounded.”
– Arizona Republic, February 16, 1991, p. B-9
“I confess that I have not always been accurate in my public talks and writings.”
– Paul Dunn, “Official Apologizes for Embellishing Stories,” Washington Times, October 28, 1991
http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/paulhdunn.htm
If only we could get other Mormon authorities and prophets to also apologize for being untruthful. We could start with Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. But then that would end the fun the LDS have with their peculiar religion.
Falcon,
Isn’t it interesting that ex- Mormons don’t know anything g about Mormonism? I love it when active LDS say that about us. I will admit that I know more about the doctrines now than I ever did while LDS. So many LDS are clueless about Masonic temple rituals and what goes on in the temple. Never would that have been discussed in my home. The majority of LDS haven’t actually been through the temple. How many of them would still be LDS if they knew? My own Mother, who’s in her sixties, doesn’t even know and didn’t believe me about secret handshakes. The weirder doctrines are only found in the temple. No wonder they keep those secret. You are right when you say that Mormon scriptures are a poor place to find Mormon doctrines.
Kate,
The game in Mormonism, as in all cults or totalitarian regimes, is to control the flow of information. Once that flow is lost then control of the little people starts to erode. We talk often here about how with the internet Mormons can surf around and find just about anything they want regarding Mormonism.
I would agree with you that it’s quite ironic that Mormons claim that the only people who could possibly know anything about Mormonism, are those active in Mormonism. What I’ve discovered is that what our TBM types are really saying is that the only people who know anything about Mormonism are those who “believe” it. Because, as you know, someone who believes all of the LDS nonsense thinks in a very particular way.
So “knowing” in Mormon lingo, really means “believing”. That’s why the Mormon testimony is filled with “I Know!” It’s suppose to lend credibility to the testimony without really having to produce any proof. That’s also why the “feelings makes it true” mantra is so important for Mormons.
I know a lot about Mormonism and hence I don’t believe any of it. What drives Mormons crazy is that I also know a lot about the BoM and I’ve never cracked the cover of the book. They can’t seem to get it through their heads that you can “know” a lot about a particular book and never have read it. What these Mormons want is the “believe” means “know” paradigm to be activated. We have Christian posters here who’ve read the BoM cover to cover several times and even that doesn’t serve as a credible witness regarding what they report about the book.
That’s the Mormon game. The reader of the BoM only has credibility in knowing if they believe it.
Now what our Mormon posters don’t seem to process is that I really don’t talk all that much about the BoM except to say that it isn’t an actual history of an actual people. I can figure that out by reading a Cliff Notes summary containing pertinent information or by reading reviews by those who have done an in depth analysis of the book.
Anyway, I don’t plan on reading it because it drives the Mormon posters nuts and allows me to live rent free in their heads!
Kate
Of course some places are going to be consolidated, but many more are expanding. What is happening in your local community is hardly an indication of the situation throughout the world. I am not basing my opinions on local observation, but on world events.
As to numbers, the ones you are so fired up about are not really recorded in any way, by any religion that I know of. They are not the numbers that really matter. I recall you siting the Seventh Day Adventists as being so honest and forthright about numbers, but they off nothing that the LDS church doesn’t publish in the May Ensign in the annual Statistical Report. You have no evidence that they are more accurate than we are. Your comparison is thus useless for your purpose.
Now, as to the fact that more people have left in recent years than before, that does not disprove the fact that more people are joining than are leaving, which is what my point has always been. I have never denied that people are not leaving, only that your exaggerated portrayal of the situation is not accurate.
(Oh, and how about a reference to go with that GA you mention.)
You said “You can’t speak for Ezra Taft Benson or what he meant. He spoke for himself and he said it plainly. I will take him at his word, thanks though.”
I don’t claim to speak for President Benson, as I clearly showed by the word ‘think’ in my last post. However, you don’t seem to take him at his word, but rather to exaggerate his word to fit your needs, which seems very typical of critics here. Look at his words again. He spoke of people trying “to underplay” the spiritual aspects and to “inordinately humanize the prophets…so that their human frailties become more apparent than their spiritual qualities” He is obviously not talking about ignoring their human frailties, but rather placing them in proper perspective.
We do not exaggerate their frailties, but we do not ignore them either. We seek to understand them that we may better understand the men and their words.
Shem,
Kinda like how at the latest GC the brethren announced that the number of missionaries increased while the number of baptisms decreased from the year before, which was in the heat of the failed Mormon moment? Kinda like that? Keep rolling, my friend.
Yea, the LDS church is really kicking it, right? People are joining in unprecedented numbers and no current members are going inactive or resigning. It shouldn’t be long before the LDS church takes over the world.
Our TBMs do indeed live in the Mormon bubble, a parallel universe were reality is defined by hopes, wishes and dreams.
Mormonism is a tough sell, especially to get people to the temple level. The LDS is sort of like a religious Free Masonry lodge. That group is also having difficulty with recruitment.
But all that matters to the TBM is that they are able to convince themselves of what they want to believe.
I think the below excerpts pretty much summarizes what is going on in the world of the LDS church. It’s very difficult for the true believers to acknowledge it.
“God is moving in the hearts of the Mormon people, calling them to Him. It’s coming — the decline and fall of the vast Latter Day Saint Empire, and it is crumbling from within.”
“When the Internet first arrived, many feared it would extend the reach of the Mormon Church, but though their voice is heard, what sounds even louder and longer is the voice of dissent. God is using the Internet to shine an intense light into the dark corners of Mormonism. Search engines like Google are now the nemesis of the Mormon leadership, often leading young people to ask embarrassing questions like, “Why didn’t you tell me Joseph Smith was a polygamist?” Mormons of all ages are leaving, even at the risk of losing their children and grandchildren to the cruel Mormon practice of “shunning” because, unlike their leaders, they cannot live a lie.”
“ABC 4 News, Salt Lake City, confirms that record numbers are leaving the church, with sociologists placing active membership at the 5 million mark — a record loss of almost 70% of the membership of the Mormon Church. This substantiates the downward trend that apologist Kurt Van Gorden and I noted in The Kingdom of the Cults (2008). Statistics from the site: http://www.whymormonsleave.com pinpoint the top reasons Mormons lose their testimony as I ceased to believe in the church’s doctrine/theology, followed closely by I studied church history and lost my belief, and I lost faith in Joseph Smith.”
“One anecdotal source posting on YouTube as Gidget Lawrence sums up what countless online Mormon-focused discussion boards are saying, “The LDS Church is definitely losing members in large numbers in Utah. Much of this is due to an influx of evangelical Christians from other states.”
“Mormonism in Utah stood pretty much uncontested until the ’90s. Now, there are many voices exposing the truth about Mormon history and the heretical teaching of Joseph Smith. People such as the late Walter Martin, Sandra Tanner, Doris Hanson, Bill McKeever, and Shawn McCraney have made a significant impact in the state over the last 20 years.”
“Years ago, Walter Martin predicted the fall of the Mormon Church would begin from within, saying that “When God destroyed Goliath of Gath, he didn’t do it with the stones. He cut off his head with his own sword. The twitching corpse of Mormon theology will lie there one day because its head was cut off by its own archives.” There is now a daily current of credible information available online to anyone with a question about the truth of Mormonism; secrets once hidden in Mormon archives are finding their way out.”
“God is using biblical truth, history, and technology to touch the hearts of people. He is using the Sword of the Spirit inside the Mormon Church, and the head of Goliath is within reach.”
http://beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2013/05/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-mormon-empire-2448106.html
Shem,
http://www.abc4.com/mostpopular/story/Number-of-faithful-Mormons-rapidly-declining/rvih3gOKxEm5om9IYJYnRA.cspx
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/31/us-mormonchurch-idUSTRE80T1CM20120131
“Now, as to the fact that more people have left in recent years than before, that does not disprove the fact that more people are joining than are leaving, which is what my point has always been.”
Hahaha! You just said numbers aren’t published so how do you KNOW this? Again, until your church is honest no one will ever know, not even you. I will take Marlin Jensen’ s word over yours and I am done beating this dead horse to death. You are simply wrong.
I guess the rank-and-file Mormons haven’t gotten the memo from the boys who sit in the big chairs in the tall building at LDS HQ in SLC that the church is bleeding members.
The head honchos appear to be concerned but I suppose they have to put on a brave face for the dues paying members.
Walter Martin hit it right when he said that the LDS church would die from within. It has been dying. The problem for the LDS church is that they can’t change their history. They can change some of the doctrines and the temple rituals but they’re stuck with their past.
I think the little book, “Who Moved My Cheese” pretty much captures what is going on in the LDS church and the effects it does and will have on members.
“Who Moved My Cheese? is the story of four characters living in a “Maze” who face unexpected change when they discover their “Cheese” has disappeared. Sniff and Scurry, who are mice, and Hem and Haw, little people the size of mice, each adapt to change in their “Maze” differently. In fact, one doesn’t adapt at all…”
Change will come to the LDS church as it attempts to stem the tide of people leaving and the difficulty recruiting new members to the maze. The boys at the top have a real challenge on their hands because they will probably lose at least some members to the FLDS who practice that old time Brigham Young style of Mormonism.
The bottom line, however, is that the Morg. must keep up their donor base or their cash cow will begin to go hungry.
See when someone comes to Christ, they come to Christ. That’s it. They aren’t joining a church. They are recognizing that they are separated from God because of their sin and that by putting their faith in Jesus, they receive forgiveness and eternal life.
Mormonism is a little more complex. In fact that’s one of the factors that causes some Mormons to not “get” Biblical Christianity. The message of salvation through Jesus.
Mormons place faith in their church, the system that is suppose to save them if they do the proper works to earn their place in what they call the Celestial Kingdom. This is not a Biblical message. In fact Mormon salvation can’t be found in the Bible or the BoM for that matter.
Without Joseph Smith there is no Mormonism. It wouldn’t exist. It was his religion.
Those of us who are in Christ Jesus trace our message of salvation back to the first century when Jesus walked the earth. The revelation is found in the Bible. There is nothing to add to it.
Those who are in Christ are new creatures. All the old passes away. All things are new.
Shem,
Grindael issued you a challenge about Adam God. Despite what you say, I still believe you are a lair and deceiver. I say that because you have been given the truth and reject it over and over. Now tell us plainly, will you take this Adam God challenge with Grinadel? He said you wont, and I believe you wont either. Dont make any excuses, Either say, Yes or no. If you say no, then we figured you would say no and we dont care about excuses as to why you wont. I want lurkers to know, all the LDS here, Shem, Ralph, FoF, Alex, Silkworm and others talk a big game, claim the have the truth, and then run from challenge like this Adam God challenge.
Just to add something Shem said, He said to me,
So now he has the chance to prove once and for all, yet I really believe he wont.
Then He said to me,
This shows he is a liar and he can set us straight because, BY said, that his Adam/God teaching was scripture, and was/is Doctrine, and that our salvation hangs upon knowing this doctrine. So it seems Shem claims he believes Doctrine from the church, but when we show him his prophets said, This is doctrine, He ignores it and refuses to say it is, then makes excuses and says, It was their opinion and we dont really know what they meant. Well he has a chance to prove this, but will he? I doubt it.
This idea that Brigham Young wasn’t serious about his Adam-God doctrine is foolish. He believed it, he taught it, and Mormons accepted it as revealed truth. The problem is with the Mormon system of determine what is doctrine and what isn’t. We’ve had various Mormons try and convince us of what the process is by which “doctrine” becomes accepted but it’s just more of the Mormon maze of confusion that becomes deceit.
The Mormon prophets of yore were performing a high wire act without any nets. They fell off the wire continually and subsequent generations are left to explain why their prophets couldn’t balance.
The main problem is that Mormon prophets have this impression of themselves that they are hearing from God. What they are really hearing from is their own imaginations. That’s why subsequent generations of Mormons are left to clean up their mess.
Does anyone doubt that Bruce McConkie didn’t believe what he wrote in “Mormon Doctrine” and that Mormons bought that book thinking that it explained what Mormon doctrine is? Cousin Brucie was a leader of the LDS church. But my impression is that the guy was not able to be controlled by the rest of the leadership.
Sandra Tanner is quoted as saying:
“I believe the main reason McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine” was taken out of print was due to its candid discussion of LDS doctrines that the church is now trying to hide. Such teachings as God once being a man, his wife–Heavenly Mother, and Jesus being the literal, physical son of God are just a few of the doctrines that are being minimized in current manuals. If the LDS Church felt “Mormon Doctrine” presented a faulty compilation of their doctrines, why haven’t they issued an authorized compendium of their beliefs? Mormons often say to me, “That’s not official doctrine” as though there was some place to look up the official teachings. Where is the official systematic theology of Mormonism?”
This guy does a good job of explaining “McConkie” in three minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abgUDUfIuoY
This nine minute video explains why this mother was concerned that she would not be reunited with the infant she lost to death. This is another one of those Mormon “doctrines” that I wonder is more Mormon folk doctrine or if it’s actually written down some where and clearly defined.
The woman’s problem was getting her first husband and then her second husband to do the work necessary in order to secure the family’s position in the Celestial Kingdom. What she says is that she was taught that if the proper work wasn’t done, the deceased infant would be given to a worthy Mormon family if the next world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X6nPJdytXU
Is any of this Biblical? Of course not. Was this form of thinking part of what the first century Christian church believed and practiced and was “lost” and needed to be “restored”. Again a big “NO!” it’s just more Mormon fiddle faddle and an attempt to play, “Let’s start a religion”.
Shem said
Here is the problem with this, You LDS believe you have the holy spirit, we Christians also believe that, the Off shoot groups of Mormonism also believe the same thing, and we dont agree at all and believe the other groups are wrong.
So we clearly all dont believe the others have the Holy Spirit. So this goes back to we need evidence and not a good feeling or praying about truth. The Bible says that even the demons believe yet they tremble, They know who God is, yet they are not and will not be saved.
The Bible also says as I keep pointing out, Jesus says, Many will come to me and say, Lord, Lord, Did we not cast out demons in your Name? Did we not do these works in your Name? and many other things in Your Name? These people believe they have the Holy Spirit, because they believe they did many GOOD WORKS in the name of Jesus. But He claims they are evil and He never knew them.
Rick
Actually, I never read the challenge because I have been ignoring Grindael as best as I can. I have no desire to enter into another pointless contention with him where he mines quotes and then misrepresents them; then he ignores everything I say, even when I am quoting the leaders of the church; and finally accuses me of not answering him. I find it tedious and at times mentally sickening. Yes, I have engaged him at times in the past, but I will not do so now.
I will say that if someone else wishes to repeat the challenge I may accept though I may not. I am not sure at this point as I really don’t know what the challenge is. I will say that I would likely not accept it from Falcon, and there is a good chance I would not accept it from you, for the same reason I wouldn’t accept it from Grindael. Now, MJP, Mistaken, or John I am much more likely to engage in such a topic with because they are generally much better behaved.
Shem, Your a coward and a joke, You claim we mine quotes, yet it is quotes from your leaders and prophets, if you cannot handle the truth, then why are you here? Your here to keep trying to deceive and bring as many people to hell with you all in service of your father.
Rick B said that with confidence. Christ has already secured His victory over all deception at the cross.
Shem said
You ignore him and pretty much all of us, not because we mine quotes as you say, but because you cannot defend the lies. You have no response to all the confusion your leaders stated.
For example, You claim that if it is doctrine of your church you believe it and wont deny it. Yet it was your prophet who said, It was scripture and doctrine that Adam was God. He also said that we must hear it, for our salvation hangs upon it. Yet despite him saying that, you claim it is not doctrine and was his opinion, but thats all you can do, is state your opinion and cannot prove otherwise.
Then you admit, God told JS to practice polygamy, And your leaders claimed it was to be that way forever, and we would be DAMNED if we did not continue in it, and we might as well deny Mormonism to deny polygamy. Yet when the government presses the church to stop, they then claim it was revelation of God. Yet you have no good reason why God would claim it is everlasting, then less than 60 years later God changes His mind (supposedly).
Blacks in the priesthood was another that was to be forever and never end under penalty of death.
Then you guys claim and pride yourselves on Revelation from God, yet the one thing you never hear from God, is answers from God about the whys to these issues. The only types of responses we hear are, Gods not ready to tell us, milk before meat, or His ways are not are ways.
Yet the Bible says, God is not the author of confusion, satan is, and all these issues are nothing but confusion and I would think if God really cares and loves us, He would speak to the prophet and set everyone straight once and for all. But you know that will never happen since your following a false prophet.
As a dog returns to its vomit,
so fools repeat their folly.
~Proverbs 26:11
Rick,
Of course answering Mormons with 4 and 5 pages of quotes to back up what you say is “mining quotes”. What else can they say? They simply won’t believe the truth.
~Proverbs 26
Rick,
One thing to think about, the Mormon god didn’t give a revelation to give the Blacks the priesthood. Spencer Kimball went into the temple with his group of higher ups and prayed to see if they could put an end to no Blacks in the priesthood. They all got a warm fuzzy feeling and made a declaration. I wonder if their warm fuzzy feeling was actually wrong? You can talk yourself into feeling what you want to be true. They wanted the No Blacks revelation to end so they didn’t lose their tax exempt status and so BYU could continue in sports. In my mind a “revelation” trumps a “declaration.”
Shem,
If I were in your position, I would have to ignore grindael too. He throws out too much evidence and I wouldn’t be able to face that either. He buries all of you Mormons with words from your own prophets and leaders, so technically, it’s your own prophets and leaders that are proving you wrong.
Rick
Isn’t it fun.
Actually, as you are want to do, you not only misrepresent the quotes of our leaders, but you lie concerning what I have said. You call me a coward because I choose not to engage in a debate with a person who has lied in almost every thread he has posted in and ignored everything I have said in the past. All you have ever been able to do is state your opinion that I am wrong, and yet your own arrogance and delusion forces you to claim that your opinion is proven truth.
Let us check a few things here:
You said “You claim we mine quotes, yet it is quotes from your leaders and prophets”
Of course it is, but what does that prove. Quote mining means that you take as many quotes as you can from a legitimate source, give them out of context, and then proceed to misrepresent them by claiming that you are the final authority in understanding what the men meant. This is what you do, and I have, on countless ocasions showed you just how ignorant you are and how what you claim does not match what is actually said in the quotes you give. Yet you ignore me and then lie about what I said.
You said “Yet it was your prophet who said, It was scripture and doctrine that Adam was God.”
I know the quotes very well, and those in which he was declaring doctrine I accept completely and without reservation. The problem is that in your delisions and lieing you try to claim as doctrine what he never claimed as doctrine. You twist his words and sometimes out right lie in order to claim your foolishness is correct. What you say is what I reject, not what the prophets have said. You really need to step out of your own self deception and try to understand this distinction.
You said “Then you admit, God told JS to practice polygamy, And your leaders claimed it was to be that way forever, and we would be DAMNED if we did not continue in it, and we might as well deny Mormonism to deny polygamy.”
Here is a good example of your lies in regards to me, as I never once admitted this. I admit God commanded Joseph Smith, and I admit that to deny the doctrine is to deny the gospel. However, it was never taught that it would be that way forever, or that we would be damned if we did not always practice it. You have demonstrated your willingness to lie and twist meaning in order to deceive others. Why should I engage in any kind of discussion with you?
Let us just leave it at these prime examples, though if I went back through all the threads I posted on I am confident that I could fill several pages with all the lies and misrepresentations you have made over time.
I have always said that I am willing to engage in a discussion with anyone who is willing to do so in a polite and honest manner. You, Grindael, Falcon, and many others have proven that you cannot be civil in your discourse, nor can you be honest in words. You have filled neither of the conditions of discussion that will enduce me into a discussion with you.
Kate
What Grindael does does not prove anything. His tactics are to post as much as he can in an attempt to overwelm, not prove anything. He can then claim that he has proven us wrong because we simply lack the desire to sift through everything he says, varify its accuracy, read in context to understand its meaning, and then reply point by point to his long list of lies and misrepresentation. He is the king of quote mining, and everyone here seems to think the more a person babbles the smarter they are.
To put it another way, just because a person brings fifty guns to the contest, that does not mean he is a better shot than the man who brings only one.
Let me give a challenge to Grindael. Give us one quote, and then discuss that quote in depth. After that quote is discussed, then let us look at another. I have serious doubts that Grindael could actually engage in a discussion in this manner, as he relies so heavily on overwleming tactics rather than actually proving anything.
Shem,
The fact is, your own prophets and leaders have proven you wrong over and over. You generally state your own opinion and you refuse to take your prophets at their word. You twist their words trying to convince us that what they said isn’t actually what they meant. We take your prophets at their word, you seem unable to do this. Sometimes a duck really is a duck.
Of course, Shem does not do this himself. He goes on and on with long posts also. You see what he is doing here. If you quote only one quote, it isn’t enough, if you quote many, it’s too arduous and intricate for him to take the time to try and comprehend. There is no pleasing such people. This is simply a game he plays, based on Mormon Bubble denial. This is the Mormon Straw Man called the “shotgun” analogy. (But that actually applies to putting different topics in an answer not multiple quotes that prove context, but he is not intelligent enough to figure out what his analogy really means). Any real historian would laugh at you that one quote is good enough to prove something. It’s a completely ridiculous argument. Shem can’t handle multiple quotes, because it is actually devastating to his arguments. He know that doing so puts something in context and perspective. Yet, we see Shem do this himself time after time. He picks and chooses who he will answer this way, though, and stays away from me because he knows he has no answers for me. I TOLD YOU HE WOULD DO THIS. It proves he knows nothing about Adam God, and won’t engage on it. Thanks Shem, for proving me right…. again. **Quack!**
I want to post this for all your lurkers out their that really want to believe Shem is the honet man he claims, Here are his words He said
Did his leaders really say this or Not? He will claim No they did not, I claim they did, So lets see what they said shall we.
“Some quietly listen to those who speak against the Lord’s servants, against his annointed, against the plurality of wives, and against almost every principle that God has revealed. Such persons have a half dozen devils with them all the time. YOU MIGHT AS WELL DENY “MORMONISM,” AND TURN AWAY FROM IT, AS TO OPPOSE THE PLURALITY OF WIVES. Let the presidency of this church, and the twelve apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose that doctrine, and the whole of them would be damned.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 203)
I want people to notice it clearly says, Some quietly listen to those who speak against the Lord’s servants, against his annointed, against the plurality of wives, and against almost every principle that God has revealed.
Polgamy was given as a principle from God, and Gods anoited.
Notice it also says
It clearly says, it is doctrine and we would be damned if we oppose it. Now what was that, that shem said ? O-yea, Shem said
Now lets add more shall we?
Notice it says, It is an EVERLASTING COVENANT, And if we reject it we cannot be permited to enter Gods Glory.
So Lurkers, Tell me, Did I lie? or did Shem lie? I bet Shem will come back and claim I dont know what I am talking about no matter what.