Mormonism and its “vital revelations flowing in a never-ending stream”

StreamJohn Taylor, the third prophet of the Mormon Church, explained:

“We require a living tree—a living fountain—living intelligence, proceeding from the living priesthood in heaven, through the living priesthood on earth. … And from the time that Adam first received a communication from God, to the time that John, on the Isle of Patmos, received his communication, or Joseph Smith had the heavens opened to him, it always required new revelations, adapted to the peculiar circumstances in which the churches or individuals were placed. Adam’s revelation did not instruct Noah to build his ark; nor did Noah’s revelation tell Lot to forsake Sodom; nor did either of these speak of the departure of the children of Israel from Egypt. These all had revelations for themselves, and so had Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, and Joseph. And so must we, or we shall make a shipwreck.” (The Gospel Kingdom, 34, quoted in “What Is a Living Prophet,” Ensign, July 1973

Living prophets are essential to the Mormon faith, and one of the hallmarks of the Restoration. While all fifteen of the top leaders of the Mormon Church are considered “prophets, seers and revelators” (i.e., the members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the members of the First Presidency), Thomas S. Monson is the prophet and president of the Church, and has been since February 2008. According to, as the current president, Mr. Monson is “the only person on the earth who receives revelation to guide the entire Church.”

In light of all this, hoping it will spark some good discussion here on Mormon Coffee, I’d like to re-ask a question that Aaron has asked elsewhere:

What is something Thomas Monson has revealed as a prophet that, if he hadn’t revealed, we wouldn’t have otherwise known?

*The quotation used in the title of this blog post is from Spencer W. Kimball, quoted in “The Living Prophet: Our Source of Pure Doctrine,” Liahona, January 1999.

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
This entry was posted in Mormon Leaders, Prophets and tagged , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

85 Responses to Mormonism and its “vital revelations flowing in a never-ending stream”

  1. Rick B says:

    Kate, you mentioned coffee and tea. Me and shem just went over this, now he is saying he can drink tea, and that if I say he does not follow the word of wisdom, them I’m getting to legalistic, it’s more a matter of the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law. I even gave quotes from joseph Smith and Brigham young saying they prayed to God and were told to not fellowship with anyone not fully obeying the word if wisdom and you cannot hold any office in the church, and no surprise, shem does not care or agree. If joseph was alive today, he would not know this was the church he founded.

  2. johnnyboy says:

    Just so we are all clear on the fact that words mean things, I will add this thought:

    Proclamations ≠ Revelations

    That is all 🙂

  3. Old man says:

    Just wanted to say ‘well done’ for some excellent posts. In one of them you mentioned the huge numbers of people leaving the LDS & that, coupled with what you say here “Notice how Shem said that Salvation comes only through the LDS church? To a true Christian this is utter and complete blasphemy.” is a reminder of a conversation I had with my ex-wife earlier this week during which she used the word ‘Blasphemy’ in connection with the LDS man/god doctrine.

    All in all we had a very long & encouraging conversation, I won’t say any more than that at the moment but I am expecting some good news concerning her relationship with the LDS in the not too distant future. 🙂

  4. falcon says:

    OK you guys.
    Don’t you know that the ban on coffee and tea is part of the restoration of the original first century gospel?
    The original apostles didn’t drink coffee or tea!!!! PERIOD!!!!

  5. Rick B says:

    The problem is, we don’t speak mormon or live in the bubble. Mormons would say, the apostles and Jesus did not drink coffee or tea, so that proves the word of wisdom. But if we say, well then, Jesus said he was God, or God the father says, he is the only God period then were still wrong because we don’t put mormon spin on the scriptures.

    It’s like when we quote Brigham young, were told it is his opinion. But if amormon quotes Brigham young, then it was doctrine that he spoke. Some how we could go back and quote the ensign and it would be opinion, but shem quotes it, and it is approved doctrine. See we just don’t speak mormon, but that’s good because mormon speak is from their father and he is the devil and the father of lies. We speak as we are told and that’s from God our father.

  6. Kate says:

    Some Mormons believe that drinking any kind of tea goes against the word of wisdom while others believe that herbal tea doesn’t count. The word of wisdom says “hot drinks” to me that would not only include herbal teas (which have been used for thousands of years) but also hot cocoa and the Mormon favorite, postum. There are some Mormons who won’t drink any colas because they believe that caffeine is addicting. Jesus drank wine. He turned water into wine. At a temple class that we attended, I asked the bishop with us why we can’t drink wine if Jesus did it. He told me that it wasn’t really wine, it was more like grape juice. Wine is wine and has been fermented for thousands of years. It was safer to drink wine than water. Water made people sick. It wasn’t until 1869 that Thomas Bramwell Welch successfully paseturized grape juice, stopping the fermenting process. Meat in times of famine only, this one isn’t observed at all. Mormonism is a free for all. Believe what you want, throw out the rest.

    Old Man,
    That is good news! The fact that she is allowing conversation is great. Keep us posted!

  7. Rick B says:

    I said the same thing to shem and to lds iver the years, it says hit drinks, they define that as coffee and tea, but nit hit chocolate, or soup, etc.

    As far as Jesus drinking wine, any lds who says it was really grape juice is a liar or needs to read the bible. Jesus was accused if being a drunk, how’s that possible if he drinks grape juice?

    I point out also lds ignore the rest, like eating meat only in winter, then I get stupid replies from shem like, it’s always winter in my fridge. Like I told him, that’s like saying, I’m naked underneath my clothes. In some wsys I don’t feel sorry for lds that die and go to hell, they openly reject the truth and fight hard to supress it.

  8. Rick B says:

    Sorry about typos, my replys are from my cell phone and typing on some serious small print and small screen

  9. Kate says:

    “Don’t you know that the ban on coffee and tea is part of the restoration of the original first century gospel?
    The original apostles didn’t drink coffee or tea!!!! PERIOD!!!!”

    Ya know, this is really interesting. How could the ban on coffee and tea be part of the restoration of the first century gospel? Coffee and tea hadn’t made it to the middle east in the first century. They never heard of it. I never believed or was taught that the word of wisdom was part of the restoration of the gospel. I was taught that it was a command given by God to keep our bodies healthy. I know you were joking, it just got me thinking 🙂

  10. Kate says:

    It’s always winter in my fridge???? To me, eating meat only in times of famine would mean that we only eat it if there isn’t anything else to eat. No Mormon should be eating meat these days. Not with a grocery store on every corner! The mental gymnastics some Mormons go through is truly amazing! It should be an Olympic sport!

  11. Old man says:

    “The mental gymnastics some Mormons go through is truly amazing! It should be an Olympic sport!”

    Love it 🙂

  12. grindael says:

    Actually Rick,

    It is Mormon “prophets” that are too legalistic, and Shem won’t listen to them (only when HE wants to), which is a great thing for him I guess, but gives no one else any confidence in them. Joseph Fielding Smith made a famous quote about the “one cup of tea” keeping you out of the celestial kingdom, and there are many, many more.

    You cannot neglect little things. “Oh, a cup of tea is such a little thing. It is so little; surely it doesn’t amount to much; surely the Lord will forgive me if I drink a cup of tea…” if you drink coffee or tea, or take tobacco, are you letting a cup of tea or a little tobacco stand in the road and bar you from the celestial kingdom of God, where you might otherwise have received a fulness of glory? (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-1956], 2: 16.

    Of course, Shem will tell us that this is only “opinion”, and that his own opinion surely trumps his own “prophets” because Shem “knows the doctrine”, and no one else, it seems does. Shem really just makes this stuff up as he goes along and literally has no quotes to back up what he says Mormonism actually teaches, except from the “I have a Question” segment of the Ensign Magazine while relegating Conference addresses actually made by his “prophets” as “opinion”. Priceless. We provide the quotes, the context, & the history and Shem provides hot air straight from his bubble of denial.

    man trapped in bubble

  13. shematwater says:


    “According to what you say, someone can receive revelation but not have the keys to salvation? Do you realize what a totally inane statement that is?”

    That is not insane in the least, and is demonstrated over and over in the Bible itself as Gentiles are given revelation or even visions that direct them to seek out those who have the keys. This happened with Cornelius when he was directed to seek our Peter. It happened with Paul when he was shown in vision Ananias who would heal him. These men did not have the keys, as the keys were held by Peter and the twelve, and yet they received revelation and visions from God.


    “Coffee and tea do count as food, sorry. What about abstaining from meat?”

    Coffee and tea are drugs, not food; and nowhere does it tell us to abstain from meat. It says to use it sparingly, when doing so is needed or safe, but it does not say to abstain from it. Maybe you need to refresh your understanding of the true doctrine, as you continually show that you have no understanding of it.

    “One difference, I backed mine up with God’s Holy Word.”

    No, you backed it up with your opinion as to the interpretation of God’s holy word, and that is a very different thing indeed. You didn’t even really do this. You merely quoted a few verses and then implied that I don’t believe what they say, without really giving any thought as to their meaning. So don’t try to hide your double standards, because it doesn’t work.

    “Please tell us what your leaders have forsaken.”

    Time, ambition, and in many cases family; I know you hate to think that a person that has a house is actually serving God, but that is just ridiculous. God has blessed them, and I have no problem with that.
    We live in a very different time than the ancient apostles. We don’t have the government outlawing our religion and hunting down anyone who believes in it. We live in a time of extraordinary freedom. The sacrifices of men today cannot be judged according to the sacrifices of men 2000 years ago. They have forsaken all, just as the ancient apostles, and you have no real evidence that they haven’t. All you have is your petty complaints that they receive support for their labors, which proves nothing.

    As to everything else you and Falcon and all the others are saying, you again demonstrate your complete lack of understanding of our faith and the true nature of the doctrine. You say I will never understand your faith, but you continually prove that you will never understand ours.
    Christ is the only way to salvation, and the only way to Christ is through the church that He has established; thus, by reason if logic, the only way to Salvation is through the church, because it is the only way to Christ, who is the only means of Salvation. To call this blasphemy is rather silly.

  14. shematwater says:

    To all those who still want to harp on Tea, please read the Word of Wisdom and try to use some intelligence in understanding it.

    D&C 89: 10-11
    “And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
    Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.”

    Herbal teas have always been clasified as herbs, which are ordained for the constitution and use of man, to be used with prudence. So stop twisting the truth around.

  15. grindael says:

    To all those who still want to harp on Tea, please read the Word of Wisdom and try to use some intelligence in understanding it.

    It is not we, that are “harping on tea”, it is your idiotic “prophets”. ANY TEA is an herb, genius. The tea that Jo and Brigham and all were drinking is camellia sinensis, and it is AN HERB. It is your “prophets” who have no intelligence, because they said that “hot drinks” were bad. ALL HOT DRINKS, including the herbal teas you are trying to say are “ok”. It’s about TEMPERATURE, TEMPERATURE, TEMPERATURE. They may be ok NOW, but they were not in Jo and Brigham’s day, and camellia sinensis the HERB, has been regulated out of Mormonism. This is the contradiction of Mormonism, which seems (time after time) to not be able to penetrate into that bubble that you live in. You are the only one twisting the truth here, genius. If it is not about the caffeine (in modern days) then what is the problem with Coffee? That was also a “hot drink” they used in Jo’s day. Your incredible level of ignorance is simply astounding, Shemster.

    man trapped in bubble

  16. Rick B says:

    Shem said

    Coffee and tea are drugs, not food;

    Ok Shem, Now you just proved your ignorance. Coffee and Tea are food, remember your talking to a professional Chef/baker with over 25 years professional experience. If you mean they are drugs because you can get addicted to them, then that still does not make it a drug.

    People are addicted to Sex, thats not a drug. People can and are addicted to sugar, thats not a drug, they can be addicted to food, and I’m talking good healthy food, and thats not a drug. Many people go to coffee/tea houses. Those are not drug houses, and we are not having cops shut them down for dealing drugs. Wow Shem, keep it coming.

  17. MJP says:

    My simple question is this regarding tea and coffee: is drinking it a sin or will it lead to sin? I don’t think it is a sin, and I do not think it leads to sin.

    Its clear people in the LDS church think it does both, and it is even more clear that there were people in the LDS church who thought it does both.

    But the next question is even if it is sinful in some way to drink coffee and tea, will Jesus forgive us? Absolutely. Its not clear all in the LDS have thought that drinking coffee and tea will allow full forgiveness.

    Here’s the point: whether or not LDS are consistent and accurate in discerning if coffee and tea are sufficient hot drinks to be excluded, the very existence of rules that prohibit drinks of any kind creates a legalistic system.

  18. Old man says:

    As Rick has spent most of his adult life as a chef I’m sure he would agree with me when I say that a lot of foods can be harmful to a few people & a few foods can be harmful to a lot of people.
    For example, my daughter is unable to eat potatoes or anything containing starch. There are huge numbers of people with that particular malady, so shouldn’t potatoes be included in the Word of Wisdom?

    “Coffee and tea are drugs, not food;”
    As Rick & others have said, coffee & tea are NOT drugs although they do contain the drug caffeine in very small amounts. It’s a fact of life that many of the common foods we eat contain drugs in small amounts. Here are just a few that Joseph Smith forgot to mention.

    Turkey contains Tryptophan which while necessary to the body in very small doses can lead to organ damage if too much is eaten.
    Chocolate contains theobromine which is a mild stimulant.
    Refined sugar causes mood swings & can lead to sugar addiction.
    Parsley & nutmeg contains Myristicin which is an hallucinogenic drug.

    Incidentally D&C 89:14 says that “all grain is good for the food of man”
    Well, that’s simply not so, grains such as wheat, rye, barley & oats contain gluten which, while estimates vary, may adversely affect the health of up to 50% of the population.

    Face reality Shem, the word of wisdom simply reflects the widely held beliefs of the period in which it was written. It is no more a revelation from God than the ‘proven’ scientific examples given above.

  19. falcon says:


    I didn’t say “insane” but “inane”. There’s a difference.

    You were making the point that people received “revelation” but didn’t act on it.
    Maybe you’re right because you are demonstrating that continually on this blog. You are receiving “revelation” here concerning the truth about Mormonism and the fundamental principals of which God has made known to us in these later days.
    You stubbornly refuse to recognize how God is speaking to you through his apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers and pastors on this blog and those manifesting the Gifts of the Spirit in ministering to you.
    So yes, I think I’ll agree with you because you are demonstrating that which you have said. We all will continue to pray for you and consider it a privilege to minister to you as God is directing us.

  20. grindael says:

    I am simply astounded by this quote from the Shemster:

    Yes, the Ensign and Heber J. Grant are all just reiterating my opinion. I didn’t know I was so popular. I gave two quotes from the Ensign, which is a publication that is overseen by the Prophet and nothing is printed in it without his approval. The Ensign declares the doctrine of the church, not the opinions of individuals. I don’t care who wrote a specific article, it carries with it the official approval of the President of the church and that is all that matters. Then I also gave a quote from Heber J. Grant, who was the President, so don’t tell me this is just my opinion, as that just makes you the joke.

    Nothing was printed in the Journal of Discourses without Brigham Young’s approval either, but this isn’t good enough for the Shemster. This came about because of this quote from our Bubblicious friend,

    Now, the Ensign is an official publication of the church, and is considered as doctrinal as the scriptures. So, when it says in this article that ” Many drinks contain no significant levels of drugs and can be used as tasty warm drinks with some nutritive benefit.” we can conclude that some forms of herbal tea are not against the word of wisdom.

    The Journal of Discourses was also an “official publication of the Church”. But Shem will not acknowledge that. As was the Times and Seasons, the Millennial Star, the Evening and Morning Star, the Improvement Era and many, many more. His hypocrisy is staggering. Hmmm. Here is what Thomas Monson said in 2010:

    The Apostle Paul declared: “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? … The temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.” Brethren, it is our responsibility to keep our temples clean and pure. Hard drugs, wrongful use of prescription drugs, alcohol, coffee, tea, and tobacco products destroy your physical, mental, and spiritual well-being. Any form of alcohol is harmful to your spirit and your body. Tobacco can enslave you, weaken your lungs, and shorten your life. Music can help you draw closer to your Heavenly Father. It can be used to educate, edify, inspire, and unite. However, music can, by its tempo, beat, intensity, and lyrics, dull your spiritual sensitivity. You cannot afford to fill your minds with unworthy music. Because sexual intimacy is so sacred, the Lord requires self-control and purity before marriage as well as full fidelity after marriage. In dating, treat your date with respect and expect your date to show that same respect for you. Tears inevitably follow transgression. (President Thomas S. Monson, “Preparation Brings Blessings” GENERAL CONFERENCE APRIL 2010)

    Does Monson qualify his statement with, “only certain kinds of tea”? Nope. So we are to believe what is written in the Ensign over what Tom Monson said and had published? This is the logic of Shem at work. So why is coffee bad if it is the ingredients in tea, those harmful toxins that Shem made up, that will hurt people? Coffee is simply ground coffee beans. You can buy them whole and grind them yourself. There would be no additives in that, but it contains caffeine naturally. So why is coffee and tea included in the list of things that “destroy your physical, mental, and spiritual well-being?” Why is ANY form of alcohol, which has many beneficial uses proven by scientific studies labeled as something harmful to your spirit and your body? Was it harmful to Jesus and his apostles who drank it and recommended that it only not be used in excess? And about that caffeine, here is something more on that:

    With reference to cola drinks, the Mormon Church has never officially taken a position on this matter, but the leaders of the Church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit. Any beverage that contains ingredients harmful to the body should be avoided. ~1972 Priesthood Bulletin

    But caffeine is NOT harmful to the body unless it is abused, like every other drug, prescribed or not. And since Shem says that the Church publications like the New Era and Ensign are doctrine, he must not have seen these items of doctrine,

    In 1975, Bishop H. Burke Peterson of the presiding Bishopric stated in the New Era:

    “We know that cola drinks contain the drug caffeine. We know caffeine is not wholesome nor prudent for the use of our bodies. It is only sound judgment to conclude that cola drinks and any others that contain caffeine or other harmful ingredients should not be used.”

    In 1980 in the Ensign, Elder Sterling W. Sill stated:

    “In the Word of Wisdom the Lord so narrowed down the width of the road leading to good health that, among other things, he placed alcohol, nicotine, and caffeine out of bounds.

    On the Larry King Live show in 1998, the following conversation took place in answer to a caller’s question regarding the Word of Wisdom:

    Hinckley: Oh, I don’t know. You’ve read a part of the word of wisdom. The word of wisdom covers many things. It covers the excessive use of meat, as I see it. It covers, in a very particular way, the use of tobacco and alcohol.
    Larry King: By saying no?
    Hinckley: By saying, by proscribing those things.
    Larry King: No to caffeine?
    Gordon B. Hinckley: No to caffeine, coffee and tea.

    Here is more Church DOCTRINE from the Ensign. Just months after the 1972 Priesthood Bulletin was issued, Lenny and Naomi Hesterman submitted the following letter to the Ensign:

    In the June issue of the Ensign, members were advised against drinks containing habit-forming drugs [Policies and Programs, p. 46]. We wondered if many of the Saints were aware of the high caffeine content in chocolate. Even though no mention of it is made on the labels, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration reported to us that an eight-ounce candy bar has 160 milligrams of caffeine, which is 50 milligrams more than a stay-awake pill. Also, this amounts to nearly twice as much as in a cup of coffee. We learned from the World Book Encyclopedia that chocolate also contains the poisonous alkaloid theobromine in addition to caffeine. We remember an article in the newspaper several years ago that reported that chocolate had the same habit-forming effect on children as nicotine has on adults….We also recall that President Heber J. Grant advised against the use of chocolate some years back. Certainly there are many things beyond those mentioned in the Word of Wisdom that wise and prudent Saints will learn are not for the best interests of their health and bodies.

    Here is the same guy that Shem quoted, about herbal tea, from another official Church magazine and therefore Doctrine,

    Coffee and the caffeine it contains plays a major role in dozens of diseases in the United States, from the number one killer, heart disease, to the number one physical complaint, chronic fatigue. (Goulart, 1984 [See “Sources” footnotes at the end of the article].) Of course, the United States is not the only nation that consumes large quantities of drinks containing caffeine. The following results of U.S. studies are representative of a worldwide problem. Medical researchers have long suspected that coffee consumption contributes to diseases affecting the heart or the blood vessels attached to the heart. Obtaining conclusive data, though, has been difficult. Many studies measured coffee drinking at a time remote from reported heart problems. Other studies did not adequately consider important variables such as cigarette smoking, age, and cholesterol level in the blood. They could not establish whether the heart disease primarily resulted from drinking coffee. (Liahona, March 1990)

    But that is not what more modern studies have concluded:

    Coffee has a long history of being blamed for many ills — from the humorous “It will stunt your growth” to the not-so-humorous claim that it causes heart disease and cancer. But recent research indicates that coffee may not be so bad after all. So which is it — good or bad? The best answer may be that for most people the health benefits outweigh the risks. Recent studies have generally found no connection between coffee and an increased risk of cancer or heart disease. Why the apparent reversal in the thinking about coffee? Earlier studies didn’t always take into account that known high-risk behaviors, such as smoking and physical inactivity, tended to be more common among heavy coffee drinkers at that time.However, the research appears to bear out some risks. High consumption of unfiltered coffee is associated with mild elevations in cholesterol levels. And another study found that two or more cups of coffee a day can increase the risk of heart disease in people with a specific — and fairly common — genetic mutation that slows the breakdown of caffeine in the body. So, how quickly you metabolize coffee may affect your health risk. Newer studies have also shown that coffee may have benefits, such as protecting against Parkinson’s disease, type 2 diabetes and liver cancer. And it has a high content of antioxidants. But this doesn’t mean you should disregard the old maxim “Everything in moderation.” Although coffee may not be very harmful, other beverages such as milk and juice contain nutrients that coffee does not. Also, keep in mind that coffee accompaniments such as cream and sugar add fat and calories to your diet. Finally, heavy caffeine use — on the order of four to seven cups of coffee a day — can cause problems such as restlessness, anxiety, irritability and sleeplessness, particularly in susceptible individuals.

    So, everything in moderation, says the Dr. quoting the Bible. Shem says that meat is not prohibited by the Word of Wisdom, yet it is, and beer is ok’d by it, which is in direct contradiction to the “doctrine” quoted above,

    12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; 13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine. 14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth; 15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger. 16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground— 17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

    Beer is a mild drink made from barley. Of course, this had been regulated out of the Mormon Church and they do not follow the command about meat at all. The advice though, given by the Dr. about Caffeine above (that it should be used in moderation), is real God given advice that has been proven right time and time again. So why do Mormon leaders continue to decry coffee and tea? Control. They do not trust their members to be moderate, just as they don’t trust their members to live the law of consecration and so force them to pay tithing. Forced regulations are what destroy the spirit, and grieve the Holy Spirit of God. Shem has this all wrong, from start to finish.

  21. Kate says:

    “Christ is the only way to salvation, and the only way to Christ is through the church that He has established; thus, by reason if logic, the only way to Salvation is through the church, because it is the only way to Christ, who is the only means of Salvation. To call this blasphemy is rather silly.”

    Jesus doesn’t stipulate that we must go through the LDS church. He says “Come unto Me” so once again you are wrong. Why would anyone claiming to be a Christian completely ignore the words of Christ himself? Mormons do this time and time again. As I said, I understand Mormonism, you don’t understand Christianity or Christ. I know you don’t get what I am saying to you because you don’t know Jesus. Try taking yourself, your church and your leaders out of the equation. What are you left with? Nothing. In Mormonism you can’t gain Salvation with Jesus alone, according to you, it’s your church who saves. Jesus is just there to clean up after all that you can do yourself.

  22. Mike R says:

    Kate , you’re right on the money , because we don’t go through the church as the only
    way to Jesus and thus salvation . Is’nt it sad that Mormonism has claimed that their
    church is the way the truth and the life ? Kate you’ve been set free from a elaborate
    religious system masquerading as Jesus’ church .

    grindael ,

    Why don’t Mormon leaders stop long enough to listen to themselves ? When Monson
    said that ” wrongful use ” of perscription drugs , or coffee and tea , for example , he
    just proved why these things are certainly not sinful to partake of if we use some
    common sense and not over consume them . It’s hard to imagine how far from Jesus’
    gospel of salvation Mormon leaders have drifted by denying a person entrance to
    their temple ordinance ( and thus eternal life ) because they drink coffee . This man
    made rule mirrors the behavior of Jewish leaders in Jesus’ day because they added
    unnecessary rules about the Sabbath , for example . Jesus came to set those people
    free from the type of law system they taught , and it comes as no surprise that many
    LDS are finding in Jesus their freedom from the system of unnecessary rules that is
    the “restored ” gospel Mormonism .

    The older I get I find that the simple things in my life are much more appreciated .
    One of those things is a hot cup of coffee made on a fire in my yard on cold frigid
    mornings . I’m ranch bred, born, and raised and I love looking over the fields at the
    hills as the sun comes up over them as I sip that good hot cup of coffee . It’s a time
    to ponder things , to reminiscence , and to give thanks for many things like friends,
    a good family , and for a Savior I personally met many years ago and who I have
    worshiped and praised ever since . This is one of the simple things in my life . When I
    see how the Mormon people have been so deceived by how their leaders use the
    Word of Wisdom the way they do , it saddens me . The Mormon people deserve
    to have guides that are more trustworthy in relaying spiritual truth from God because
    their latter days apostles have failed to be such where it counts the most .
    Jesus’ true apostles in the New Testament can meet the need of the Mormon people .

  23. grindael says:


    Actually, if you read Monson, he is condemning coffee and tea, and the qualifier is only for prescription drugs. His statement reads,

    ”Brethren, it is our responsibility to keep our temples clean and pure. Hard drugs, [notice the comma with no qualifier] wrongful use of prescription drugs,[qualifier, then comma, then:] alcohol, coffee, tea, and tobacco products destroy your physical, mental, and spiritual well-being. Any form of alcohol is harmful to your spirit and your body.”

    Monson is NOT saying that there is “wrongful use” of coffee, tea, tobacco, etc. He was saying wrongful use of just prescription drugs, which makes sense, because they are prescribed by Doctors. I also heard that Monson is a Diet Coke fiend, from people that have worked in the COB. The hypocrisy of these men is unbelievable.

    I have two cups of coffee a day. Love my morning coffee. I usually don’t finish the second cup. Got to be Columbian, with a little sugar and Vanilla Creamer. Divine. Many years after I left Mormonism I started drinking beer. Being young, and in a rock band, it got out of control. Coffee was my helper to stop that problem. Since I could not be moderate with beer, I abandoned it, (and this was after being saved in Christ), which I never thought I could do. I didn’t need a regulation, I had the Holy Spirit to help. No one forced me to change, God prompted me to. I was fortunate also, I didn’t know that I would soon be devastated by injuries that require me to take medication that would not mesh well with any alcohol. God is good, all the time.

  24. Mike R says:

    grindael, thanks for pointing that out .

    Vanilla Creamer ? Now that’s how to ruin a good cup of coffee 🙂

  25. shematwater says:


    Food (
    any nourishing substance that is eaten, drunk, or otherwise taken into the body to sustain life, provide energy, promote growth, etc.

    As coffee and tea are stimulants and are not taken to sustain life, provide energy, or promote growth, I call them a drug. Tea and coffee are consumed for the stimulus they provide, and that makes them a drug. It is in how they are used, not in what they are made of.
    (Oh, and my wife is a chef as well, and she calls them drugs.)


    Sorry for the confusion, but you really don’t understand what I am saying. Paul and Cornelius both received and acted on revelation, and neither had the keys at the time. This is very possible.
    Your attempt to twist my words is rather silly.


    “He says “Come unto Me” so once again you are wrong.”

    I am not wrong, because I have never denied this. As I clearly said we come unto Christ through the church; that is the straight and narrow path.

    “Why would anyone claiming to be a Christian completely ignore the words of Christ himself? Mormons do this time and time again.”

    We have never ignored anything that Christ said, so stop lying.

    “As I said, I understand Mormonism, you don’t understand Christianity or Christ.”

    As you have proven time and time again, you have no understanding of the LDS, and you comments above prove it.

    Old man

    Anyone who is actually living the word of wisdom will avoid any food that is harmful to their body. That is known as the spirit of the law, which you people keep ignoring. Medical conditions will require individual alterations to ones habits as regards the Word of Wisdom, but these are not general to the population and thus are not stated directly.

    Oh, and it is more than just a trace amount of caffeine in coffee. It is a substantial amount, which is the very reason that Coffee is used as a stimulant and not as a food.

  26. MJP says:

    Ironically, if we followed all the laws of the OT we would lead very healthy lives, too.

  27. Rick B says:

    Shem, Good for you that you and your wife call them drugs. But still your WoW is not from God and your leaders are false.

    The Bible tells us not to judge people in meat OR DRINK, the WoW does not say we cannot drink Tea or Coffee, it says, HOT DRINKS, And we have pointed out the blatant hypocrisy that your Church allows many “HOT DRINKS” while going after ones of their choosing.

    Then you said

    Food (
    any nourishing substance that is eaten, drunk, or otherwise taken into the body to sustain life, provide energy, promote growth, etc.

    Ok Shem, Dont even try telling me Mormons dont eat Candy Bars, ice cream, Hot Chocolate, Soda or cola or pop, what ever you choose to call it. I could list many foods that would not fall under healthy foods that I know Mormons eat or drink. What hypocrisy, you know it and so do I.

    We pointed out it was your church that said the WoW was just a good idea and now it turns into a “Law from God” How can your prophets drink, sell and brew hard alcohol, but then they can do what they want and you say nothing, yet complain others do what they did. Typical Mormon, do what we say, not what we do.

  28. Old man says:

    “Anyone who is actually living the word of wisdom will avoid any food that is harmful to their body. That is known as the spirit of the law, which you people keep ignoring. Medical conditions will require individual alterations to ones habits as regards the Word of Wisdom, but these are not general to the population and thus are not stated directly.
    Oh, and it is more than just a trace amount of caffeine in coffee. It is a substantial amount, which is the very reason that Coffee is used as a stimulant and not as a food.”

    That has nothing to do with what I said. I was making the point that a number of foodstuffs contain varying degrees of substances considered to be drugs. I gave just a few examples of such foods that were well known in the 19th Century so whether coffee contains large or small amounts of caffeine is irrelevant.
    The examples I gave should appear in the word of wisdom, they were common enough when it was written. Mormons should be told not to eat turkey because too much can cause organ damage, Chocolate shouldn’t be eaten because like coffee it contains stimulants, nutmeg contains hallucinogenic drugs so presumably it’s ok to hallucinate because the WoW doesn’t say it shouldn’t be eaten. Shall I go on? Why don’t you just admit it, the reason many foods don’t appear in the word of wisdom is because the drugs they contain weren’t known until fairly recently. That to me is pretty convincing evidence that it didn’t come from God

    I say again, the word of wisdom is simply a reflection of 19th century beliefs concerning certain foods, drink & customs.

  29. Rick B says:

    Hey Old Man,
    When you mentioned Nutmeg, did you know that here in the US, Kids somehow figured out that they could smoke it? Yep and as you called it, they hallucinate. Also I’m guessing many here are not very familiar with a book called, the anarchists cookbook, and no it has nothing to do with cooking. I happened to own and read the book when I was 16 years old. It talked about how to smoke Banana peels.

    So you can take good things and make them bad. Did you also know over here in the US, Kids are now using (Of all things) bath salts to get high off of. Man, how come a nice relaxing “Hot bath” is not in the Word of Wisdom. I guess Shem will believe what he wants and justify his postion anyway he can and ignore what his leaders did even though they did the same things they claim others cannot.

    Sorry but I just cannot serve a god who is so cruel and such a hypocrite.

  30. shematwater says:


    Again with the letter rather than the spirit of the Law; do we really need to go over this again? It says hot drinks because the only hot drinks in common use at that time were tea and coffee, something that Brigham Young pointed out. You are trying to take a term from nearly 200 years ago and force a modern meaning and modern connotations onto it and it doesn’t work.
    Yes, the Bible does say not to judge people in meat or drink, so why do you feel the need to judge us. Talk about hypocrisy.

    “Dont even try telling me Mormons dont eat Candy Bars, ice cream, Hot Chocolate, Soda or cola or pop, whatever you choose to call it.”
    What has this got to do with anything? The Word of Wisdom does not prohibit any food, and, as I pointed out, food is that with is consumed to sustain life, provide energy, promote growth, etc. Everything you mention provides energy, and thus it is food. We agree that eating it to excess is not healthy, but it is not prohibited.

    Old Man

    “I was making the point that a number of foodstuffs contain varying degrees of substances considered to be drugs.”

    And you clearly missed my point. Turkey may have trace amounts of some chemical, but the primary purpose in its consumption is to sustain life, and thus it is not a drug. The primary purpose in drinking tea and coffee is not to sustain life, but to stimulate the mind, and thus they are drugs.
    And yes, the amount of Caffeine in coffee does matter, for the simple fact that most stimulants have no effect unless taken in sufficient quantity. One would have to eat several pounds of chocolate to produce any effect, while just one cup of coffee produces stimulus. In the amounts that are contained in chocolate these chemicals pass through the body without ever having a chance to do anything.

  31. MJP says:

    No, Shem, there were other hot drinks at the time, including but not limited to hot chocolate.

  32. Rick B says:

    Shem, Just like MJP said, Their were other Hot Drinks. Also it is your church and leaders that are liars and hypocrites.

    Like I said before, the WoW at first was just a good idea, but now people can be kept out of the highest heaven as a result of not following it. God is not going to claim, here is a good idea, then later claim, it is a law of God.

    Plus your Lying leaders claim, No alcohol, yet they themselves Made it, and drank it, but then tell others they cannot. I guess they dont have to abide by the letter of the law, or even the spirit of the law, since they really liked making and drinking the spirits.

  33. Kate says:

    This conversation cracks me up. Grindael clearly showed us that Mormon leaders said no hot soup as well. There’s a plant here in Utah that the Mormons call ” Brigham tea” It’s a spiky looking plant that grows wild and the Mormons used to brew a hot drink from it. It’s not tea leaves at all. We would pick it at my friend’s house and her mom would add peppermint and sugar. Yes we drank it hot! As do all Mormons who are familiar with it. It contains ephendrine among other ingredients and was used to treat a whole host of illnesses such as STD’s. Hmmmmmm. Interesting. Of course we were kids and drank it because we liked it. Now did Brigham Young or the pioneers know it contained ephendrine? I doubt it. It’s not tea like Shem claims was only around during that time. The word of wisdom clearly says hot drinks are not for the belly. That would mean any hot drinks. Even if Shem were right about there only being coffee and tea back then, what about now? Why hasn’t Thomas Monson stood up and denounced hot chocolate or any other hot drink during this day and age? I’m sure he is aware that there are a lot more hot drinks available today. Why doesn’t he “update” the revelation?

  34. Old man says:

    Give it up Shem, stop trying to convince us that outmoded beliefs, once popular in the early 19th century are actually revelations from God. You tell us that Gods Grace is the important thing yet it always comes back to laws & ordinances. Do this, do that, do the other, or vice versa, there’s no respite from the legalism that is inherent in Mormonism.
    How different it all is from true Grace.

  35. grindael says:

    Yes, the Bible does say not to judge people in meat or drink, so why do you feel the need to judge us. Talk about hypocrisy.

    Then Paul was a hypocrite:

    16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

    20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

    That is what Mormons do, base their salvation on HUMAN COMMANDS AND TEACHINGS that have nothing to do with the Gospel of Jesus. Here, we point out that that is what they are doing, (which is wrong), we don’t judge individuals on what they eat or don’t eat, (I could care less) only that those who try to dictate to others what to eat and drink, are wrong. Once again, Shem shows his ignorance of what is going on here and is quick to cry “hypocrisy” when there is none to be found. Such is what the bubble of denial brings, false accusations by those who are blown about by every wind of doctrine and hear only what their itching ears want to hear.

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