Mormonism and its “vital revelations flowing in a never-ending stream”

StreamJohn Taylor, the third prophet of the Mormon Church, explained:

“We require a living tree—a living fountain—living intelligence, proceeding from the living priesthood in heaven, through the living priesthood on earth. … And from the time that Adam first received a communication from God, to the time that John, on the Isle of Patmos, received his communication, or Joseph Smith had the heavens opened to him, it always required new revelations, adapted to the peculiar circumstances in which the churches or individuals were placed. Adam’s revelation did not instruct Noah to build his ark; nor did Noah’s revelation tell Lot to forsake Sodom; nor did either of these speak of the departure of the children of Israel from Egypt. These all had revelations for themselves, and so had Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, and Joseph. And so must we, or we shall make a shipwreck.” (The Gospel Kingdom, 34, quoted in “What Is a Living Prophet,” Ensign, July 1973

Living prophets are essential to the Mormon faith, and one of the hallmarks of the Restoration. While all fifteen of the top leaders of the Mormon Church are considered “prophets, seers and revelators” (i.e., the members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the members of the First Presidency), Thomas S. Monson is the prophet and president of the Church, and has been since February 2008. According to, as the current president, Mr. Monson is “the only person on the earth who receives revelation to guide the entire Church.”

In light of all this, hoping it will spark some good discussion here on Mormon Coffee, I’d like to re-ask a question that Aaron has asked elsewhere:

What is something Thomas Monson has revealed as a prophet that, if he hadn’t revealed, we wouldn’t have otherwise known?

*The quotation used in the title of this blog post is from Spencer W. Kimball, quoted in “The Living Prophet: Our Source of Pure Doctrine,” Liahona, January 1999.

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
This entry was posted in Mormon Leaders, Prophets and tagged , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

85 Responses to Mormonism and its “vital revelations flowing in a never-ending stream”

  1. Old man says:

    I realise this comment is slightly off topic but I found John Taylors choice of words very interesting

    “And from the time that Adam first received a communication from God, to the time that John, on the Isle of Patmos, received his communication, or Joseph Smith had the heavens opened to him,”

    Adam received ‘a communication’ John received ‘his communication’ & what did Jo Smith get? Why, nothing less than ‘the heavens opened to him’ compared to Smith the Apostle John would appear to be very small fry indeed.
    Now I’ve read what Taylor had to say I have to assume that Smith was much closer to God than Adam or John ever were. That of course is the exact impression that Taylor intended to convey. Such evocative & deceptive language seems to come naturally to false prophets.

    Ok Sharon, back on topic & here’s something that Monson has revealed. He’s revealed nothing. Does nothing count as something? Well, in this case it does because by revealing nothing he has revealed that he isn’t a prophet at all, just like Benson, Hunter & Hinckley before him.

  2. falcon says:

    I watch GodTV (DirectTV 360) now and again because it appears to be the media home of the modern prophetic movement. It gives me some practice at using spiritual discernment since I don’t run into people doing this on a regular basis.
    These “prophets” are always revealing something. A couple of the favorite phrases are “getting your break-through” and “a new season of……..”. So if Mormons are really interested in on-going continuous revelation they should tune into these prophetic conferences.
    I don’t know of anything Monson has come up with to excite the crowd except to tell the folks to live clean moral lives and love their families. It’s all a big “DUH!” as far as I’m concerned when these Mormon big wigs give their sermons and admonitions.
    The Mormon prophets are running on empty. Everything they say is now available through media outlets and the internet and can be scrutinized. In the old days, they had a certain cloistered situation and closed society to spout all sorts of nonsense. Brigham Young was a real champion of this.
    I think these LDS folks ought to consider going back to Smith’s main feature of his new religion which was that the individual members could receive direct revelation from God. When Smith realized that that sort of thing undermined his authority as a prophet, he had to retool. That’s one reason that he lost members when he dumped the Book of Commandments and came up with the Doctrines and Covenants.
    Let’s face it, these modern dudes just can’t do it the way the old timers could.

  3. falcon says:

    Back in April of 2012, Sharon wrote an article titled “A Mormon Denominational Walk About”. I’ll post the MC link here.

    Now why would I bring this up in the current context of this article? Well it’s quite simple. The modern day Mormon prophets don’t speak with the authority that the old timers did and when we examine the various sects of Mormonism, we find that they all have prophets that revealed the truth at one time or another.
    So Mormonism is suppose to be about a true “restoration” of something that was lost, right? Well all of these different sects have had revelations that argue for their version of the restoration. Why would any of these sects be able to lay claim to having the really, really, really true restoration; because they think they had the prophet with the hot hand (I think that’s a hockey analogy)?

    The LDS prophets don’t reveal anything because they have nothing to reveal. The Mormon people may as well go stick a quarter in that fortune teller machine that was the basis for the Tom Hanks movie “Big” for all the good their prophets are doing them.

  4. MJP says:

    Does the clarification on hot drinks and caffeine and soda count?

  5. Mike R says:

    Mormons claim that they have the living prophet , God’s ” modern day ” mouthpiece through
    whom new revelation has come . This is proudly stated in an attempt to show that Mormonism
    is apart from all other churches , and in fact the only true church today . The D&C is then
    displayed to bolster the claim of new revelation /scripture . This type of presentation by
    Mormons is alluring , yet when it is brought to their attention that there has been only a scant
    few revelations added to the D&C in the last 100 years , then a new tactic is utilized , namely ,
    the term “revelation” is reduced to meaning something far more broad : The Mormon prophet
    receives on going revelation on all kinds of things , from where he is going to speak next , to
    building a new Mall , to giving approval for major church outreaches . One example of these
    revelations was when a few decades ago he warned of the impending harm on the family from
    a growing moral problem in the country. This was lauded as revelation from God’s modern day
    mouthpiece , especially by Mormon today who point back to it as proof they have God’s
    exclusive mouthpiece guiding them .
    I suppose it makes Mormons feel good that they have God’s authorized channel of truth
    among them today , but the sad part is that they have been lulled into a false sense of security
    by being so busy with church activities and everything exterior with their leaders that they
    have not taken the time to evaluate what these men have taught about God , for example .
    This is a spiritually dangerous situation to be in , especially today .

  6. spartacus says:

    I’ve been mulling the phrase “with great power comes great responsibility” as it relates to the LDS church and its great claims:

    -The One True Church
    -The One True Prophet of God
    etc., etc.

    With great claims such as these there is great responsibility. Another way of saying it is: with great power/claims (should) come great fruit. But where is the great fruit of the Great One True Church?

    Sharon is focusing on the Prophet, specifically Monson. So the questions is – if Monson is such a great One True Prophet of God, then where is the CORRESPONDINGLY great singularly true revelation????

    LDS need to really think about this!

    If you want to claim such great things, then there should be great proof in the pudding!

    LDS love to claim – One True Church, One True Prophet – but then they make ALL KINDS of excuses for why the products of this Church and Prophet are not correspondingly singular, great, or true. “Some members and leaders have made mistakes”, “that’s just folklore”, “it was just his opinion”, “that is not official”, “I have not received a confirmation of the truth of that from the Holy Ghost” (as I have asked before: where’s the true prophet(s) in Mormonism?).

    Again – leadership products of the LDS church should be true (always) and great and singular (AT LEAST often!). I watched my first General Conference in 2005 or 6 and I remember being surrounded by LDS and thinking – “How is this any different than any other decently articulate pastor or other ethical feel-good speaker? I can get this at any half-way decent church – whether they are true or not, so long as they are sufficiently moral.” As pointed out by others above, leading an organization (even as large and prosperous) is not very singular or even particularly great- plenty of non-LDS and secular people do this all the time. Surely if God is involved it should be clearly far-surpassing all others. So there goes the “great” and “singular”.

    And what about “True”? Well, if the great claims of One True Prophet of God were true, shouldn’t the LDS church not so closely resemble the very things they critique in other churches that don’t have this Prophet? LDS claim so much about Protestant “confusion” and “conflict” – what about all the LDS confusion about Repentance, Sin, Worthiness, God’s nature, the Hill Cumorah, and meat and tea? Or what about the animosity between SLC Mormons and all other one true successions from Joseph Smith – remember Hinckley’s “There is no such thing as a ‘Mormon Fundamentalist.’ It is a contradiction to use the two words together.”?

    Think about this LDS people! With great (claimed) power comes great responsibility (to perform accordingly- i.e. – greater fruit).

    The proof is in the pudding.
    Where’s the beef?
    Where’s the revelation?
    Where’s the unity and consistency of Divine Guidance?
    Will the One True Prophet please stand up?
    And revelate?

  7. Rick B says:

    Sharon/Aaron asked this question of LDS

    What is something Thomas Monson has revealed as a prophet that, if he hadn’t revealed, we wouldn’t have otherwise known?

    I know I’m stating the obvious, but I would like to point out how not ONE LDS has replied to this yet, they tells me all I need to know, and that is, They have reveled nothing.

  8. Old man says:

    I’m asking this of any LDS member who has an interest in this topic. I was wondering about the need for continuing revelation since the time of Joseph Smith who supposedly ‘restored’ the gospel.
    Now I may not be very bright but I would have thought that once the Gospel had been restored there would be no need of further revelation or prophecy. Was anything further needed after Christ revealed Gods plan of salvation? The answer is obvious nothing further was needed. It goes without saying that if the so-called ‘great apostasy had not occurred there would have been no need for Joseph Smith to restore the Gospel but on the assumption that it did occur & the further assumption that Smith did restore it then why would further revelation be needed?

    It’s logical to assume that LDS prophets are unnecessary & redundant; common sense dictates that this has been the situation within the LDS since 1844.

    One is left with the feeling that it’s more about power & control than prophecy or revelation.

  9. johnnyboy says:

    @old man

    The primary lesson manual I taught from earlier this year had this little gem to say about why visitations of angels doesn’t occur anymore :

    “Why don’t angels appear to us when we pray? Help the children understand that in 1823 the truth was not on the earth and had to be brought back by heavenly messengers. Because we now have the gospel, most of our personal prayers are answered in other ways. Answers to our prayers sometimes come into our minds as we listen to lessons or talks in church, talk to our parents or Church leaders, or read the scriptures (Lesson 3: The Angel Moroni Visits Joseph Smith)”.

  10. Old man says:

    Thanks for that. Your ‘little gem’ especially this part of it, “Because we now have the gospel” pretty much confirms what I said. As we now have the Gospel in all it’s fullness of what further use are prophets? They’re no longer needed & have in fact been redundant since 1844.

    It’s going to be interesting to see how our resident apologists respond to this. 🙂

  11. spartacus says:

    Old man you may have to explicitly show how “we need prophets to lead the church in contemporary secular and religious issues” does not deal with you’re point. Or else that’s what you’ll get.

  12. Old man says:

    sorry but could you rephrase that?

  13. shematwater says:

    What people generally don’t understand about revelation and the need for new revelation, is that it most frequently does not bring us knew knowledge. It rather reveals the mind and will of God and it is through this that the church is regulated.
    When it was revealed to Noah to build the Ark what great and new truth was being revealed? When it was revealed to Lot to flee Sodom, what great new truth was being revealed? The truth is restored at the beginning of a dispensation through revelation; as it was with Moses and later Christ. Those who came later receive revelation not generally in restoring truth, but in regulating the affairs of the church. On occasion new truth is revealed to later prophets, but it is not common.

    So, to answer what President Monson revealed that we would not have otherwise known; it is not any point of doctrine. It is rather that it is now God’s will to restructure the missionary efforts, lowering the age and integrating technology, especially the internet. It is in knowing God’s will as to where to build a temple, or how to divide the areas of the church for better organization. These are the continuing revelation that President Monson receives, and will continue to receive.

  14. spartacus says:

    Old man,

    I was saying you should clarify or hone your point so the LDS that respond can’t get away with “leading the church today in all things religious and secular” – basically what Shem just said.

  15. falcon says:

    As I pointed out, there are sects of Christianity known as the modern prophetic movement who claim continuous revelation from God. They also claim prophets and apostles as well as teachers, evangelists and pastors. Just tune in channel 365 DirectTV which is one of the media homes for this movement.
    So the Mormon restoration is entirely bogus on several different levels. One of which is all of the different sects of Mormoism all claiming to have the “real” deal, one true church with the real prophet who is hearing from God.
    There is no basis for Mormonism except that a false prophet and other subsequet false prophets made a bunch of bogus claims. What’s so hot about Monson. Anyone could “reveal” what he reveals.
    If you want, I’ve got some revelations for you, personally. You want them?

  16. MJP says:

    Shem, I guess, then, my pastor is receiving equal communications from God as he is in charge of directing my church in areas such as adding on to the church building, how to arrange small groups, how to address childrens ministry, dealing with missionaries, etc. His staff helps, but he prays to God for direction. So does the staff pray.

    Does this make him a prophet?

  17. Old man says:

    Thanks for that Spartacus. To be honest before I even posted my comments I was expecting the kind of response that Shem offered but I knew that being clear makes no difference to an apologist, they will simply twist what is said into something more to their liking.
    Having said that, Shems response does not invalidate my argument, we are constantly being told that Joseph Smith the prophet restored the fullness of the Gospel & that being the case there can be no more need of prophets. The problem with the LDS is that they cannot or will not accept that the time of the prophets ended many years before Christ & since the coming of the Holy Spirit there has been no need of a prophet in the Old Testament sense. God uses all true believers for his purpose. He will give the gift of prophecy (just one of several spiritual gifts) to whomever He chooses for wherever there is a need. There was a need of prophecy in the early church & there are several examples given in the New Testament but Gods revealed word was COMPLETE with the closing of the New Testament canon. There is no need for further revelation beyond what we have in the Bible.

    Now to be a little more specific concerning shems response.
    “What people generally don’t understand about revelation and the need for new revelation, is that it most frequently does not bring us knew knowledge. It rather reveals the mind and will of God and it is through this that the church is regulated.”

    We already know the mind & will of God, it will be found throughout the Bible. His revelation to men is complete & finished & no further revelation is required.
    What you say in the second paragraph has no relevance to the discussion.
    Everything else included in your post can be answered quite simply as follows.
    The functions you describe (apart from the Temples which are non-Christian) as being performed by LDS so-called prophets are performed on a daily basis by God fearing Christian men & women throughout the world. They would not dream of calling themselves prophets.
    It can all be summed up thus.
    There is a spiritual gift of prophecy but there are no New Testament prophets, there are only New Testament false prophets.

  18. MJP says:

    I’d add this to Old Man’s response (not that it needs more). My sarcastic remark above is precisely in line with OM’s point. God reveals his plans, will, and mind to each of us daily. Not just our bishops or pastors or other leaders, but each and every believer. The leaders are only serving God as this is their strength and calling. They don’t get anything extra in God’s sight for serving others like they do. It’s not a rung on a ladder, and they, as OM points out, would never call themselves prophets, even though they rely on God’s plans, will, and mind to accomplish everything. God speaks to them in a very real way nonetheless.

  19. Mike R says:

    It’s not an easy sell for Mormons these days in promoting their prophet to be the one man on
    earth who receives revelation to guide the entire church . The claim that the Bible’s dead
    prophets/apostles are superseded by Mormon prophet Monson is something that might catch
    the eye of someone reading Church published P.R. material , but in reality Mr. Monson is getting
    very old and will soon join a large list of Mormonism’s “modern day living prophets ” who will
    not have added any more to the collection of ” modern day ” revelations collected in the D&C .
    But Mormon are quick to remind everyone that their prophet does in fact receive revelations
    from God , and that this still proves he is a unique prophet . Some of these revelations might
    be the executive decisions he makes as the overseer of the enormous financial corporation
    his predecessors have constructed , or urging his flock at Conference to be moral people , or
    revelation on what kind of financial investment to make with his ” salary” he receives for his
    position , or where to build another temple , etc, etc, all these and more are the modern day
    revelations by Mormonism’s modern day prophet .
    At this point what MJP has said in his last post , has some food for thought . How much more
    unique is the daily role exhibited by prophet Monson different from many christian
    Pastors /Elders today ?
    The bottom line here is that we simply don’t need Mormonism and it’s leaders . They do not
    live a greater moral lifestyle than a host of non Mormon christian leaders , nor are they any
    more patriotic . The one major thing that they are different in though is the kind of revelation
    they claim has come to them about God and that is something no one’s needs because it has
    only caused their flock to drift farther from the truth about who God is and how to be reconciled
    to Him that the Bible’s prophets/apostles revealed —the men Mormons call ” dead prophets.”
    But Jesus warned us to be on the lookout for prophets in the latter days who would misled many .
    The Mormon people deserve authentic prophets /apostles . These are available to them in the
    Bible .

  20. grindael says:

    So, to answer what President Monson revealed that we would not have otherwise known; it is not any point of doctrine. It is rather that it is now God’s will to restructure the missionary efforts, lowering the age and integrating technology, especially the internet. It is in knowing God’s will as to where to build a temple, or how to divide the areas of the church for better organization. These are the continuing revelation that President Monson receives, and will continue to receive.

    LOL. This is great. But this is not what those like Jo Smith taught. Here is Jo’s diary entry for January 2, 1843 and I want you all to notice something very important that I will bold in this entry:

    Says Elder Hyde, “Put them [the negroes] on the [same] level and they will rise above me.” Joseph [said], “If I raised you to be my equal and then attempt to oppress you would you not be indignant and try to rise above me? Did not Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer and many others say I was fallen and they were capable of Leading the people. {page 42} Had I any thing to do with the Negro I would confine them by strict Laws to their own Species [and] put them on a national Equalization.

    [p.270] “Because faith is wanting the fruits [of faith] are not [evident]. No man since the world was, ever had faith without having something along with it. The ancients quen[c]hed the violence of [nature and] escaped the edged of the sword. Women received their Dead &c. By faith the worlds were made. A man who has none of the gifts has no faith. He deceives himself if he supposes it. Faith has been wanting not only among the brethren but professed Christendom also, that Tongues and healings {page 43} and prophecy and prophets and apostles and all these gifts and blessings have been wanting.” Joseph spoke at great length and edification to the little co[mpany].

    /Objections being made to the Prophet’s [lack of] meekness/ “I am meek and lowly in heart. I will personify Jesus for a moment to illustrate and [for] you inquirers. ‘Wo unto you ye Doctors. Wo unto you ye scribes, pharisees, and Hypocrit[e]s.’

    ”You cannot find the place where I ever went that I found fault with their food, their drink, their board, or their Lodging. No never. This is what is meant by the meekness and Lowliness of Jesus.” {page 44}

    Mr. Sollars stated that James Mullone, carpenter, of Springfield told him he had been to Nauvoo and seen Joe Smith the Prophet. He had a grey horse and I [Mullone] asked him where he got it and the Prophet said, “you see that white cloud?” “Yes.” “Well as it came along I got the horse from that cloud.” Joseph replied, “It was a lie. I never told him so.”

    /In reference to preparing Generally/, what is it inspires with a hope of Salvation? It is that smooth sophisticated influence of the Devil by which he deceives the whole world. Mr. Sollars says, “May I not Repent and be baptized and not pay any attention to dreams and visions &c?” Joseph said, “Suppose I am Travelling and I am hungry and meet {page 45} a man and tell him I am hungry. He tells me to go yonder, there is a house for Entertainment, go knock, and you must conform to all the rules of the house or you cannot satisfy your hunger. Knock, call for food and set down and eat, and I go and knock and ask for food and set down to the table but do not eat shall I satisfy my hunger? No! I must eat. The Gifts are the food. The graces of the spirit are the Gifts of the spirit.”

    Joseph [said], ”When I first commenced this work and had got 2 or 3 individuals to believe I went about 30 miles with [p.271] Oliver Cowdery, one horse between us, to see {page 46} them. When we arrived, a mob of a hundred come upon us before we had time to eat, and chased us all night and we arrived back again about 60 miles in all, and without food, a little after Day light. I have often travelled all night to see the brethren and often been turned away without food.”

    Evening closed by singing and prayer per El[der] Hyde. Posted the bed on the floor [for] Joseph, Orson, [and] Willard. (Scott H. Faulring, An American Prophet’s Record, p. 270-271)

    Did you all catch what Jo taught here? Where there is no EVIDENCE, there is NO FAITH. Where is the evidence of Thomas Monson’s FAITH? Where is the speaking in tongues? Where is the fire from heaven? Where is the raising of the dead, all of the things that Jo said the CHRISTIANS were lacking, but that he and his bro’s had? And being meek and lowly was just about accepting what you are given to eat? You see how arrogant Jo was. Shem is just making excuses for his “prophets” lack of doing ANYTHING but run a Corporation, that could easily run itself. Notice also, that Jo also refutes another point that Shem has made about Christianity… When they later expanded upon the speech that Jo gave his day, they gave the context of Jo’s comment about the Devil:

    “What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, p. 270.)

    Yes, Jo taught that the entire Christian world was apostate, they had no “gifts”, and they were all “of the devil”. This is Mormonism folks, not the watered down version that Shem tries to sell, and you can ask yourself (like Jo does above) were are the GIFTS? Where are the REVELATIONS? According to Jo, one NEEDS THEM as PROOF of one’s prophetic calling.

    On the Doctrines of Faith. Faith comes by hearing the word of God through the testimony of the Servants of God, that Testimony is always attended by the Spirit of prophecy & Revelation. (The Essential Joseph Smith, Ch.24, p.119, 27 June 1839)

    When was the last time you ever heard a Mormon “authority” give a prophecy? You will search in vain for anything in the last century, that has been documented and canonized as one. These “prophets” won’t go “on the record”. They do everything in obscurity and pontificate in vague terms that mean nothing.

    Salvation cannot come without revelation, it is in vain for anyone to minister without it. (The Essential Joseph Smith, Ch.26, p.126 – p.127, August 8, 1839)

    Shem loves to go on and on and on about how his “prophets” only speak opinions today. But this is what Jo said about that:

    The world is full of technicalities and misrepresentation, but I calculate to overthrow the technicalities of the world and speak of things as they actually exist. Again there is no revelation to prove that things do not exist in heaven as I have set forth, and we never can comprehend the things of God and of heaven but by revelation. We may spiritualize and express opinions to all eternity but that is no authority. (The Essential Joseph Smith, Ch.37, p.178, 8 April 1843)

    If these men are only up on the Podium at Conference speaking opinion, they HAVE NO AUTHORITY. Shem then, readily admits that this is true. They do not speak with any “authority”, because they only give opinions today. Thanks Shem, but it is obvious to everyone here that this is the case.

    Jo also said,

    My first object is to go back and find out the character of the only wise and true God and what kind of a being He is. If I should be the man so fortunate as to comprehend God and explain to your hearts what kind of a being God is, so that the Spirit seals it, then let every man and woman henceforth put his hand on his mouth, sit in silence, and never say anything or lift his voice against the servants of God again. But if I fail to do it, I have no right to revelation and inspiration and it becomes my duty to renounce all of my pretensions to inspiration or to being a prophet, etc. If I should do so, should I not be as bad as all the rest of the false teachers of the world? They will all be as badly off as I am. They will all say I ought to be damned. There is not a man or a woman who would not breathe out an anathema on my head if they knew I was a false prophet. Some would feel authorized to take away my life, but you might just as well take the lives of other false teachers as mine, if I were false. If any man is authorized to take away my life who says I am a false teacher, then, upon the same principle, I should have the same right to take the life of all false teachers and who would not be the sufferer and where would be the end of the blood?

    But meddle not with any man for his religion, for no man is authorized to take away life in consequence of religion. All laws and government ought to tolerate and permit every man to enjoy his religion, whether right or wrong. There is no law in the heart of God that would allow anyone to interfere with the rights of man. Every man has a right to be a false prophet, as well as a true prophet. If I show verily that I have the truth of God, show the world is wrong by showing what God is, and show that ninety-nine out of a hundred are false prophets and teachers while they pretend to hold the keys of God, and go to killing them, would it not deluge the whole world with blood? (The Essential Joseph Smith, Ch.48, p.234, 7 April, 1844)

    Let’s get this straight. If someone professes to be a true “prophet” but can’t “comprehend God and explain to your hearts what kind of a being God is” then he is a “false teacher” according to Smith. Where is the “revelation” from modern Mormon “prophets” about what kind of being God is? Here is some of their answers,

    “Reporter: Don’t Mormons believe that God was once a man? Hinckley: I wouldn’t say that. There was a little couplet coined, “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.” Now that’s more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don’t know very much about.” – Interviewing Gordon B. Hinckley, San Francisco Chronicle, April 13, 1997, p 3/Z1

    “Brigham Young said if you went to Heaven and saw God it would be Adam and Eve. I don’t know what he meant by that.” Pointing to a grim-faced portrait of the Lion of the Lord, as Young was called, Hinckley said, “There he is, right there. I’m not going to worry about what he said about those things.” I asked whether Mormon theology was a form of polytheism. “I don’t have the remotest idea what you mean,” Hinckley said impatiently. – Hinckley Interview in Lives of the Saint, New Yorker, January 2002

    Every single Mormon “authority” (except for Brigham Young) has relied upon Jo Smith for their “explanations” about who God is. Not one of them, has explained it in a “revelation”. Not one. Why? Jo said it was “essential” and that if one could not, they must renounce that they are a prophet. But all we get from modern “prophets” is answers like this:

    Interview with Don Lattin of The San Francisco Chronicle:

    DL: And this belief in contemporary revelation and prophecy? As the prophet, tell us how that works. How do you receive divine revelation? What does it feel like?

    GBH: Let me say first that we have a great body of revelation, the vast majority of which came from the prophet Joseph Smith. We don’t need much revelation. We need to pay more attention to the revelation we’ve already received.

    Now, if a problem should arise on which we don’t have an answer, we pray about it, we may fast about it, and it comes. Quietly. Usually no voice of any kind, but just a perception in the mind. I liken it to Elijah’s experience. When he sought the Lord, there was a great wind, and the Lord was not in the wind. And there was an earthquake, and the Lord was not in the earthquake. And a fire, and the Lord was not in the fire. But in a still, small voice. Now that’s the way it works.” (San Francisco Chroncile, 4/13/1997)

    A still small voice is still a voice as far as I know. Hickley said they have just a “perception in the mind”, which anyone can have. That means that there is NO CONFIRMATION OF FAITH, as Jo Smith said the MUST HAVE. In fact, let’s read the account given by Elijah:

    11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake: 12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice. 13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah? (1 Kings 19:11-13)

    Notice that Elijah said he heard an ACTUAL VOICE, not an “impression of the mind”. Hinckley, misrepresents the scriptures. (No surprise there) So why do we need these men? That’s the way it works for Warren Jeffs too.

    These men are nothing like Elijah. Every single Mormon “apostle” is wealthy in his own right. What did Jesus say about riches and wealth? Why are there no poor apostles? Why don’t they pick a poor man who works as a carpenter, or a brick layer, or a store clerk, or a school teacher? What is wrong with those people? The church provides their salary and living arrangements, right? Why are they all rich, and either lawyers or businessmen? Because they need to run a CORPORATION, not a church. And if God is “at the helm” and teaches them, what do they need lawyer or business degrees for?

    Folks, this is not what the “prophet” Joseph Smith taught or revealed. Since we don’t have anything by Thomas Monson about revelation (because he doesn’t have the courage to give any public interviews), we must go with what Hinckley said is the Standard Operating Procedure of the Church Hierarchy. According to Jo himself, these men don’t have what it takes to lead the Church of Jesus Christ.

  21. Rick B says:

    Shem said

    So, to answer what President Monson revealed that we would not have otherwise known; it is not any point of doctrine. It is rather that it is now God’s will to restructure the missionary efforts, lowering the age and integrating technology, especially the internet. It is in knowing God’s will as to where to build a temple, or how to divide the areas of the church for better organization. These are the continuing revelation that President Monson receives, and will continue to receive.

    This is typical of Shem and his replies, he wants to say something, but really has nothing to say.

    Show me from the Bible, the prophets of Old teaching that the reason they existed was to tell us where to build temples? Or tell us we are to live moral lives? Or that the age of Missionays was to be lowered? Etc, What a joke.

    As grindael did, go back and look at the LDS prophets of Old, that came after JS. They spoke what they thought was doctrine, they spoke their minds, they did not speak fluff and things of that nature. Typical Mormon reply.

  22. Mike R says:

    grindael, it seems that Mormon leaders have tried so hard for so long to showcase how their
    leadership’s claims of authority is so much more legit than non Mormons . I was
    remembering how back in 1976 when in order to come up with some “revelations” to add to the
    D&C , because members were always telling investagators that in Mormonism there comes new
    ( “living ” ) prophets and new revelation for their current guidance , also comes new scripture .
    So leadership found 2 new “revelations” ( sections # 137 & 138 ) and proceeded to publish them
    in the PGP . Then in 1981 they decided this was incorrect so they moved them over to the
    D&C as sections 137 and 138 . No doubt all this behavior was commenced by personal revelation
    of those in leadership and confirmed by an inner witness by those in their flock.
    Then we see a similar behavior with Mormon leadership during the Hoffman affair . For several
    years these men were clueless as to what they condoned to be purchased from Hoffman , they
    trusted their ” personal revelation ” ( or as Hinckley once said ” a perception in the mind ” ) .
    Mormon leaders have run important church affairs by trusting their own ideas as their guide ,
    confusing that to be the voice of the Holy Ghost whispering to them .
    This is just what Mormon leadership have accused non Mormons of succumbing to in teaching
    the christian gospel , and in fact this is exactly what they claim commenced the alleged apostasy
    shortly after the death of Jesus’ original apostles .
    Mormons can’t trust their apostles revelations . The good news is they don’t need to , because
    knowledge about God /Jesus and how to be forgiven and accepted by God is available from
    Jesus’ apostles in the New Testament . We invite those Mormons who are finding out that
    they may have been detoured ,with good intentions , into following men who have mimicked
    the claims of Jesus’ true apostles . Freedom and safety from this detour is available by turning
    to Jesus Himself and bowing before Him asking to be free from the grip of Mormonism’s
    latter days apostles .

  23. shematwater says:

    You know, people need to get a better understanding of language before they try to tell me what I am saying and what I meant.

    I never once made a comment on what a Prophet is or what their function is. I made a comment on the function of revelation, and then applied that to the Prophet. As Old Man and MJP say, all people can get revelation from God, the difference is in the scope of their revelation.
    I can receive revelation for me and my family, but I cannot receive it for someone else’s family unless I have been called to serve that family in some capacity.
    The pastor of any church can receive revelation for himself, his family, or for the church that he presides over.
    The President of the LDS church is the only one who is authorized by God to receive revelation not only for this church, but for the entire world. That is the difference between the Prophet and others; not in the fact that he receives revelation, but what he receives revelation about and for. The need for the prophet is the ever present need for their to be one in the position to lead the rest.

  24. Old man says:

    “I can receive revelation for me and my family, but I cannot receive it for someone else’s family unless I have been called to serve that family in some capacity.”
    Perhaps you can’t but Christians can & often do.

    “The pastor of any church can receive revelation for himself, his family, or for the church that he presides over.”
    Then why do we need the Mormon church?

    “The President of the LDS church is the only one who is authorized by God to receive revelation not only for this church, but for the entire world.”
    What revelation has any LDS ‘prophet’ received from God that was given to the world? When did you last see a Mormon prophet walking the streets of London or Tehran & calling the people to repentance? Even the genuine prophets of the O/T weren’t called to do that. They were called to be Gods mouthpiece to His chosen people Israel.
    And you call me delusional?

  25. MJP says:

    Amen, Old Man.

    Shem, think about it.

  26. falcon says:

    Oh Sem,
    Come on. Don’t ignore me. You’re going to hurt the old falcon’s feelings.
    Don’t you want me to reveal things to you?
    So what’s the source of yours and Monson’s “revelations”. Well I’ll tell you who it is. It’s a god that doesn’t exist! He’s one of countless gods, one of which you hope to become one day. I certainly don’t receive revelations from such a god, nor do other Christians. The God we receive revelations from is the God of the Bible.
    I don’t know? You really want to connect with the spirits that Smith was cavorting with. If you do I would suggest that the first thing you do is get yourself a magic rock, go out during the coming Fall equinox, and see if perhaps the spirit of a dead Indian or some other spirit might appear to you. With a little imagination and some folk magic hocus pocus, you to can swim in the stream that Smith did.

  27. falcon says:

    Here’s what I was referring to. For those Mormons who would like to know about Joseph Smith’s connection to folk magic, this will be “revealing”.

    The significance of the Autumnal equinox

    D. Michael Quinn writes2:

    Smith’s prayer “to commune with some kind of messenger” on 21 September 1823 occurred once the moon had reached its maximum fullness the previous day and just before the autumnal equinox. The 1665 edition of Scot’s works (upon which the “Jehovah, Jehovah, Jehovah” Smith parchment depended) specified, “And in the composition of any Circle for Magical feats, the fittest time is the brightest Moon-light” (Scot 1665b, 215). An occult book published in New York in 1800 also stated, “Dreams are most to be depended on by men at the full of the moon” (Beverly Gipsy 1800, 19). Because the full moon was the preferred time for treasure digging (Dorson 1946, 174; Granger 1977, 225; R. Walker 1984b, 443), it is probably no coincidence that, according to Martin Harris, Smith acted as treasure-seer earlier that night (J. A. Clark 1842, 225). In fact, his prayer “to commune with some kind of messenger” may have been in response to an unsuccessful group effort earlier that evening to locate a treasure in the hill. That Smith’s experience occurred at the autumnal equinox was also significant. Because the planetary hours of invocation began at sunrise which occurred at different times, Sibly’s Occult Sciences had specified that the equinox was the time when the planetary hours of invocation corresponded most closely with the common hours of the clock (1784, 174; also deVore 1947, 179). In the magic world view, the equinox was a time when the earth could be expected to experience the introduction of “broad cultural movements and religious ideas” (Brau 1980, 194, 107).

  28. falcon says:

    Old Man.
    Nuts! I was zipping along really enjoying your post until I came to the end. I may have missed the point you were making. You indicated that there are no NT prophets. Actually there are and here are some NT references for you to consider:

    Acts 13:1, Acts 21:9-10, First Corinthians 12:28, Ephesians 4:11-13

    As the references from First Corinthians and Ephesians explain, God uses the Gifts of the Spirit and roles in order to build-up the Church. These things are meant to function within the body as a service (to the whole body).
    Folks who are of the dispensational persuasion make a case that these things are no longer operational since the close of the cannon of Scripture. That’s never really made sense to me since we still have, for example, teachers, evangelists and pastors. Why not apostles and prophets? There is a very strict view of apostles that only those who walked with Jesus could be apostles. There is a more liberal view that the term means “one sent”.
    Anyway, I don’t know where our Christian posters are on this topic and I’m not trying to start a separate thread.
    Thank you for your contributions here. I appreciate them very much.

  29. Old man says:

    Falcon said
    “You indicated that there are no NT prophets. Actually there are and here are some NT references for you to consider:”
    Apologies for that, I should have made my comments clearer. The point I was trying to make is that there are no New Testament prophets as defined & understood by the LDS. That organization has prophets who, they claim, speak for God & decide pretty much everything for you, including such ridiculous things as to what you should wear & what you should eat & drink.
    Having said that the passages you quote are open to differing interpretations (although that does make for interesting discussions) but thankfully we can always agree to disagree & at the same time know that our salvation is not affected in the least. 🙂
    It’s my personal opinion, & of course I could be wrong, that those passages were relevant to the times & that the roles of apostle & prophet although vital to the church in those founding years, are no longer necessary. That’s not to say I don’t believe there are men & women who prophecy because I do, just as I believe there is the gift of prophecy. What I don’t believe is that there is a need for latter day prophets as defined by the LDS Corporation.

    Now, just a quick note for any apologists who might be encouraged to think that Falcon & I are arguing for & against the need for prophets. Sorry but you’re very much mistaken if you think that. Notice the order of importance given by Paul in Corinthians & Ephesians. (Thanks Falcon) Apostles are first, followed by Prophets. So, even if prophets were needed today your church has given them a status they simply don’t have in the New Testament Church. Either way you’re wrong.

  30. falcon says:

    Old Man,
    You and I are probably splitting hairs here but I’d say if someone has the gift of prophecy, they are a prophet. I’d also like to mention that this office/role is probably one that would be most abused and used to manipulate people and allow a person to elevate themselves. It’s also one that can be quite easily faked.
    I’ve talked to God about the fact that he took an enormous risk in giving these gifts and roles to the Church because immature people can really abuse what God has given. There are always people who abuse others and the worst of it is when it is done in the context of religion.

    Let me say this also. I get an enormous kick out of these LDS types who show-up here and try to tell us what Mormonism is. Most often they are just filling it all up with their own meaning. The most recent example is Shem’s riff on what role Monson the LDS prophet plays. I’ve found that the LDS have to mold and shape things to their own liking simply because the LDS church has a history of proclaiming one piece of nonsense after another. It’s all simply a big mess. That’s Mormonism; a constant redo and explanation of why this or that prophet really didn’t mean and do what they clearly meant and did.Those who have bought into Smith’s fantasy and groove on it, are left to their own devices in making it work.

    One last thought. Paul explains about the various roles and gifts those in the Body of Christ play and manifest. Did the LDS who read or write on this blog ever stop to consider that the Christians ministering to them here on this blog posses the roles and gifts delineated in the Bible and are guided by the Spirit of God? Who’s to say if MRM doesn’t have a prophet or two writing the articles that appear on this blog. Who’s to say if some don’t have the gift of discernment in bringing a Word of Knowledge or Wisdom to the Mormons who desperately need it.
    I do know this, we as Christians acknowledge and worship the God revealed in the Bible who gave His Holy Spirit to the Church on the day of Pentecost. Since we as believers in the Lord Jesus Christ are in the Body/the Church, it stands to reason that we are expressing those Gifts and fulfilling those roles God appointed as we labor in this His vineyard.

  31. Old man says:

    “You and I are probably splitting hairs here but I’d say if someone has the gift of prophecy, they are a prophet.”
    Yes, we probably are splitting hairs. I wouldn’t totally agree with your view of things but I do see where you’re coming from. However, it’s a pretty thin dividing line & hardly worth fighting over, just a figure of speech, I’m not suggesting that we’re fighting. 🙂
    Perhaps the issue isn’t really over prophets as such perhaps it’s more to do with exactly who or what a prophet is. There’s one thing I can say with absolute certainty, it isn’t men like Monson or any of his predecessors.

    I was fascinated by what you said in the last couple of paragraphs beginning “one last thought” I too have been thinking along similar lines & perhaps one day there can be an open discussion on the subject, but for now I’ll just say I’m sure you’ve given everyone here something to think about.

  32. Rick B says:

    Oldman and falcon,
    I’m sure you have heard of the, shepherding movement? It reminds me of what you guys said about lds prophets doing the thinking for us. I really eel sorry for lds, even people here like shem and others.

    Just look at me and shem talking about the word of wisdom. He clearly does not care what his prophets taught and said in the early days. He just believes what they say now, even though it contradicts everything jo and young said and taught. Really sad.

  33. falcon says:

    The shepherding movement. I know it well. I saw it in action but wasn’t apart of it in any way. It was simply a power move and in many ways it’s what the LDS sect or FLDS is all about. It’s about domination and people out-sourcing there free will and responsibility for their lives to some “prophet” or leader. I saw a family torn apart by this.

    Good to revisit this article from July of this year.

    “Cracks in the Mormon Dam. Some water already beginning to gush.”

    Atheist LDS current mission presidents. Unbelieving return-MP’s. Doubting General Authorities. A General Authority that stops BYU’s NAMIR/FARMS from publishing a piece against the agnostic-in-longtime-LDS-sheeps-clothing John Dehlin. Daniel Peterson fired and FARMS abandoning unabashed apologetics. Mormonism’s greatest expert on the Book of Abraham, John Gee, says the LDS Church doesn’t stand or fall on the Book of Abraham, and has offered no credible apologetic for the fraud. Extremely few identifiable up-and-coming LDS apologists, and even most of those seem to have liberalized their Mormonism. LDS philosophers abandoning traditional LDS beliefs. LDS theologians and authors embarrassed by the teachings of their own apostles and prophets.

    Palmer claims that approximately 45% of return-LDS-missionaries no longer have a temple recommend within five years of returning. Speaking of the unbelief going upstream, Palmer says, “I think it’s beginning to penetrate the upper echelons of the Church.” Lest we jump ahead of ourselves, he says, “And I emphasize ‘beginning.’”

    I’m echoing Mike R’s niche in calling into question Mormon leaders and what they’ve done to the Mormon people. Once a member of the LDS begins to question the leadership, it’s not long before the fissure in the dam of belief in the LDS church bursts.

  34. shematwater says:

    “Then why do we need the Mormon church?”

    Just because a person receives revelation does not mean that they hold the keys of salvation. Those keys are held only within the LDS church, and thus it is only through the church that true salvation is possible.
    I know you disagree, but that is not really the point. I answered your question, and just because you have different doctrine that does not alter the answer to your question or invalidate it. You cannot ask a question concerning our doctrine and then try to claim the answer doesn’t make sense because of your doctrine.

    “What revelation has any LDS ‘prophet’ received from God that was given to the world?”

    Have you ever read the various proclamations that the church has issued? Take for example ‘The Family; a Proclamation to the World.” In the General Conference of 1980 the First Presidency also issued a proclamation to the world ( in which they cry repentance to all people. Other proclamations have been issued throughout the history of the church, and have been presented to many people, including political rulers as well as religious leaders. Just because you aren’t paying attention doesn’t mean the Prophets have not been very active in this regard.

  35. grindael says:

    You know, people need to get a better understanding of language before they try to tell me what I am saying and what I meant.

    LOL, “what you meant” changes every time someone rebuts your ridiculous conclusions and opinions. You will say something that everyone here can read and understand, someone will rebut it with actual evidence (that you yourself NEVER provide) and they you will claim, “that’s not what I said” or “that’s not what I meant”. This is classic. This is Mormon Bubbleism. Interpret the rebuttal in such a way as to claim a conclusion that was never made, then answer your own made up conclusion that was never said by anyone. This is classic cult thinking. Brainwashed worker bee tactics. I must defend at all costs even if I look totally stupid cause I usually do but I keep coming back because I have a cult mentality and this is all I know to do. I am part of the drone bubble army. I’m always right because I said so. Proof? Well, I said so, so that makes it true. I’m the Mormon here, you are not so you know nothing about our doctrine. And on, and on, and on, and on, ad nauseum. You can’t even make a coherent point without screwing it up. Case in point, your last one lobbed at me (who you can’t address directly because you are a coward):

    I never once claimed the KJV was perfect and completely full of errors,

    Tell me, genius, what is wrong with this statement? Aw heck, it doesn’t matter to you. You’ll just keep making more of them and we will keep shaking our heads at the sad state of Mormon worker bees who can’t survive outside of their bubbles.

  36. grindael says:

    Just because a person receives revelation does not mean that they hold the keys of salvation. Those keys are held only within the LDS church, and thus it is only through the church that true salvation is possible.

    According to Jo Smith, THEY DON’T RECEIVE REVELATION, because they have none of the “gifts” that go along with the exercise of that power, like making a prophecy once in a while, raising the dead, speaking in tongues, etc., and therefore they have to step down. They don’t do these things, therefore they are not receiving revelation. Jo has shown that you are wrong about this. Why don’t you ever listen to what your “prophets” actually say.

    Because that would screw up your own version of what Mormonism is. Nothing like what Mormon “prophets” teach.

  37. Kate says:


    “Just because a person receives revelation does not mean that they hold the keys of salvation. Those keys are held only within the LDS church, and thus it is only through the church that true salvation is possible.”

    Do you believe in the words of Jesus at all? If it’s only through your church that Salvation is possible, why do you even need Jesus?

    “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it. Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves…Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and acts upon them, may be compared to a wise man, who built his house upon the rock. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and burst against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded upon the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not act upon them, will be like a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and burst against that house; and it fell, and great was its fall.” (Matthew 7:13-15, 21-27)

    For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds. (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)

    “See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.” (Colossians 2:8)

    “But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons…men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. (1 Timothy 4:1,3)

    Doesn’t your “church” advocate abstaining from foods?

    “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths.”
    (2 Timothy 4:3-4)

    I think this just about covers your idiotic statements. Just because your “church” claims things, such as holding the keys to salvation, doesn’t make it true. Falcon is spot on when he says that the Bible is the ultimate aunt tye Mormon book. I will put my faith for Salvation solely in Jesus, not a multi billion dollar corporation run by filthy rich men. What does Jesus say about rich men?
    Matthew 19:24
    “And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”

    How do you reconcile this scripture with your leaders?

  38. Old man says:

    “….I answered your question, and just because you have different doctrine that does not alter the answer to your question or invalidate it. You cannot ask a question concerning our doctrine and then try to claim the answer doesn’t make sense because of your doctrine.”

    Pardon? I didn’t say a word. If you’re going to attack me then at least give a chance to tell you that your answer doesn’t make sense. Are you so afraid of what I might say that you attack me before I say anything?

  39. shematwater says:


    “If it’s only through your church that Salvation is possible, why do you even need Jesus?”

    Really. Don’t you claim to be a former member, and yet you can make such statements as this that show a complete lack of understanding.
    Jesus is the Key Master, so no one can use those keys without his approval. The keys are Christ’s authority deligated to man that make his atonement active in their lives. Without Christ there would be no keys.
    Of course, if you ever had any understanding of the LDS doctrine you would know this.

    “Doesn’t your “church” advocate abstaining from foods?”


    “Just because your “church” claims things, such as holding the keys to salvation, doesn’t make it true.”

    And just because you claim things doesn’t make it true. You here display the kind of double standard attitude that is so common on these threads. You hold up what you say as true, but whenever an LDS does the same you simply ridicule them and tell them that their statements of faith don’t mean anything, unlike yours.

    “How do you reconcile this scripture with your leaders?”

    Matthew 19: 25-26 (JST) “When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld their thoughts, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but if they will forsake all things for my sake, with God whatsoever things I speak are possible.”

    That is how I reconcile it. Of course, I have no real need to do so as none of the leaders are really rich, but they have forsaken all for the sake of Christ, and so it doesn’t matter anyway.

    Old Man

    “If you’re going to attack me then at least give a chance to tell you that your answer doesn’t make sense.”

    It is called a pre-emptive strike against what is one of the most common tactics of the non-LDS on this site. You do it all the time. I was not attacking, but merely pointing out that this common tactic does not work and thus should not be used.

  40. Old man says:

    I followed the link you provided but I don’t think it works because all I found was an advertising blurb for the LDS. Allow me to give a few excerpts from the link you provided.

    “We solemnly affirm that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is in fact a restoration of the Church established by the Son of God…….that its priesthood, in both the Aaronic and Melchizedek orders, was restored under the hands of those who held it anciently: John the Baptist, in the case of the Aaronic; and Peter, James, and John in the case of the Melchizedek.”

    “We declare that the Book of Mormon was brought forth by the gift and power of God and that it stands beside the Bible as another witness of Jesus the Christ…..”

    “We give our witness that the doctrines and practices of the Church encompass salvation and exaltation not only for those who are living, but also for the dead, and that in sacred temples built for this purpose a great vicarious work is going forward in behalf of those who have died”

    “We testify that the spirit of prophecy and revelation is among us. “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God” (A of F 1:9). The heavens are not sealed; God continues to speak to his children through a prophet empowered to declare his word, now as he did anciently.”

    “Through the Prophet Joseph Smith the Lord revealed these words of solemn warning: “Hearken ye people from afar; and ye that are upon the islands of the sea, listen together.”

    “it is our obligation, therefore, to teach faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, to plead with the people of the earth for individual repentance, to administer the sacred ordinances of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost—all of this under the authority of the priesthood of God.”

    Roll up folks, hear the great news we have, repent of all the weird stuff that Christian men & women have been teaching for 2000 years, put it all behind you, join the LDS hand over your money & we’ll guarantee that you will become a god. Roll up roll up.

    Ok, you can attack me now

  41. Mike R says:

    We’ve seen some examples of how Mormon leadership’s claim to be led by revelations from
    God on some very significant issues are in reality only the what they think is from Him, i.e.
    it’s a product from their own minds /hearts which they have interpreted as coming from the
    Holy Ghost . This is not a new problem , but it’s especially dangerous today when people fall for
    the Mormon claim that they need to follow Mormon prophets in order to be right with God .
    The Mormon people have been told that they show signs of a spiritual sickness if they criticize
    their leaders , this can bring personal devastating consequences . So the rank and file
    simply trust their leaders , keep in line , and follow .
    The Mormon prophet receives revelation that directly or indirectly affects their whole flock .
    Here’s a few more examples of such guidance by revelation :

    – for years General authority Paul Dunn was allowed to teach and motivate church members.
    He was a very popular author and spell binding speaker at church functions with his faith
    promoting stories about experiences in his life . But he was found to be bolstering his faith
    promoting stories with many fabrications , which was finally exposed by a BYU prof.
    Thousands of sincere LDS were receiving feelings , personal revelation , that Elder Dunn was
    telling the truth all this time . But he was’nt .

    – For years after 1890 Mormon leaders gave testimony that they had ceased condoning plural
    marriages to take place . Yet this revelational guidance was a smoke screen .
    – Mormon leadership claim to be the revealers of the ” mysteries of Godliness ” to LDS , to
    provide correct doctrine to them . One such doctrine which they viewed as fundamental
    was the Divine birth of Jesus . His “paternity ” was one those ” mysteries ” now due to be
    revealed , the world might not comprehend it but Mormon leadership did and proceeded
    to teach that Heavenly Father came down fro heaven and had sex with Mary to produce
    Jesus’ human body , Jesus therefore was ” in the most literal sense ” the Son of God .
    Yet today this doctrine is either denied or cleverly downplayed , and most rank and file
    members are stunned when they become aware of it .
    – Then of course we know how Brigham Young testified that God revealed to him about Adam
    being the heavenly father of man’s spirit and a God over this earth . This revelational truth
    was given to the flock but evidently many were not ready for it so to avert division they were
    told not to trouble themselves about it for now just put it aside until you can get revelation
    on it like others who already accepted it . Yet today this revelation of Young’s is considered to
    be false doctrine . He attempted to feed his flock what he considered to be a revealed truth from
    God , many accepted it as such because they had a personal revelation that he had received a
    revelation . They were deceived .

    Bottom line here : when a examination of the track record by Mormon leadership on
    the revelational guidance they have given their flock it become clear that these men
    have an unstable pattern , to many times they are guilty of the same behavior they have
    accused non Mormons of. Mormon apostle LeGrand Richards explains why non LDS succumb
    to embracing false doctrine : ” Because they have not understood the scriptures , and being
    without revelation and the priesthood authority of God , they have to depend upon their
    own interpretation of the scriptures for their guidance . ” [ A Marvelous Work and a Wonder
    p. 112 ]
    Without revelation ? If the shoe fits ….

    May the Mormon people return to anchoring their beliefs about God / Jesus and salvation
    in the Bible , accepting men in the latter days because they mimic the claims of Jesus’ apostles
    is a good way to be detoured into a wrong way . Testing those who claim to be prophets/apostles
    Rev2:2 ; 2Cor 11:4,13 is vital today . Don’t be fooled by appearances ( well dressed , clean cut ,
    polite , good behavior , immaculate buildings ) .

  42. falcon says:

    So Shem……………………….as you continue to ignore me and hurt my feelings…………..

    According to what you say, someone can receive revelation but not have the keys to salvation? Do you realize what a totally inane statement that is?
    grindael has you nailed in his characterization of where you cult bubble people live and how you think. You show-up here, where people don’t think Mormon and you are absolutely bamboozled , steam rolled, back peddling and trying to rebut statements that you don’t even begin to understand.
    I’ve pointed you to John 3 where Jesus interacts with Nicodemus. Until you get a grasp on who Jesus is and what it means to be born again, you will have no understanding of spiritual things. You will only be able to interact within the confines of your own limited LDS thinking.
    Remember, most of the contributors here are former Mormons. They get you and the religious culture and thinking that is your reference point.

    You think the LDS sect you belong to has the keys to salvation? You’ll get an argument from the other groups who also claim Mormonism and their version of Mormon truth.

    I’ll continue to pray that God melts your heart and brings you to an understanding of who He is and what He has done for us through Christ Jesus Our Lord.

    Please stick around here and allow us to continue to minister to you in the Holy Spirit.

  43. falcon says:

    Mike R.

    Paul Dunn……………..great place to bring him up. And what happened to the BYU professor who blew Dunn’s cover? Who took the hit? It wasn’t Dunn. Funny that the LDS profit never got a revelation about Dunn. Just way too much Joseph Smith in some of these guys.

    “I was one who was fooled by Paul Dunn. I was out of the church long before his lies were exposed, but there was a time when I believed him. What a sap I was.”

    “The stories were too good to be true. I should have smelled a rat. I did not have any interest in baseball, so I took the baseball stories at face value, without wondering where those baseball cards were, or why some of the baseball “greats” did not show up to give a speech with him. After all, he claimed he was admired. And the Mormons surely did admire him. Paul Dunn was good. He made us feel like we were not a bunch of martinets, kooks, scolds, and meanies . Compare Dunn to McConkie. Its easy to see why people liked Dunn.”

    “I sent a copy of one of his speeches to a Methodist girl I liked. I wanted her to join the church. She sent a polite reply, thanking me for the speech. I know it did not impress her. God, why was I so stupid? Hindsight is good, isn’t it? Anyone with a dispassionate mindset could have seen Dunn was a fraud.”

    “But I thought “The Miracle of Forgiveness” was a reflection of the true state of God’s thinking on the forgiveness business. I was depressed by the book, but kept thinking it must be correct.”

    “I also tried to tell myself the temple ceremony came from God. It left me sick with fear, worry, and many logical questions. How could the God who made the world, giraffes, dinosaurs, and Marilyn Monroe come up with such a lame, scary, bloodthirsty, and weird ceremony? But hey, I kept trying.”

    “I was fooled for a long time, despite nagging doubts which told me something was terribly wrong. The capacity for self-delusion is remarkable.”

    “It finally ended for good with the Oaks/Hinckley press conference during the Hoffman days of terror. I watched it, appalled, and realized that I was looking at two men with sweaty shirts who had some sleepless nights wondering which direction things would go. The giants became midgets, the hunters the hunted.”

  44. Kate says:

    “Jesus is the Key Master”

    Bingo. I was hoping you would say this. You are right, Jesus is the Key Master and He has invited us all to come unto Him. Jesus IS the Key Master and this is why we don’t need your false church, false prophets and false doctrine, we can come to Him alone, by ourselves. Jesus is the way the truth and the life and NO ONE comes to the Father except through Him. ( Sorry but your church wasn’t mentioned in the scripture.)
    I understand Mormonism perfectly, it is you who does not understand Christianity and the the True and Living Christ of the Bible. You will not get what I am saying to you because you don’t know Him.

    Really? Your church doesn’t have you abstain from foods? Coffee and tea do count as food, sorry. What about abstaining from meat? I realize you LDS don’t follow your own word of wisdom but it’s right there in black and white. Semantics and all that.

    “And just because you claim things doesn’t make it true. You here display the kind of double standard attitude that is so common on these threads. You hold up what you say as true, but whenever an LDS does the same you simply ridicule them and tell them that their statements of faith don’t mean anything, unlike yours.

    One difference, I backed mine up with God’s Holy Word. You just gave your opinion of Mormonism’s false doctrine. Try again.

    “That is how I reconcile it. Of course, I have no real need to do so as none of the leaders are really rich, but they have forsaken all for the sake of Christ, and so it doesn’t matter anyway”

    Please tell us what your leaders have forsaken. Moving into expensive homes? Getting a salary that they hide from members? Thousand dollar suits? Flying around on multi million dollar private jets? The best that money can buy right? Tell me how does a man who works for Deseret Book until he’s 32 become a multi millionaire? The only “real” job he has ever had? Sign me up!
    Nope, not rich at all huh.

    This makes me literally ill. What did Christ’s true Apostles forsake? They gave their very lives. They gave up EVERYTHING to spread His Gospel. This is a far cry from the men in SLC claiming to be Apostles of Christ. The only thing they have forsaken is a poor (meaning not much money) lifestyle.

  45. falcon says:


    I was just thinking tonight how the Christians on this blog are totally focused on Jesus for their salvation, but not the Mormons. You herded Shem towards at least giving Jesus some tacit recognition.
    The Mormons are totally focused on the LDS church to provide them the system by which they will become gods just like the HF they claim as a god did and the millions and billions of other gods.
    The LDS church is really the Mormons’ god; this and their own works.

    Here’s the problem. Shem thinks the LDS church holds the key to his salvation. What total foolishness!
    As Christians, we are trusting totally in the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation; not some church organization, not some “prophet” and certainly not our own works.
    Shem thinks that if he dresses up in some costume, goes to a faux temple and takes part in some rituals and lives a moral life, he will become a god. His wife/wives will be his goddesses, procreate all sorts of spirit offspring who will love, adore, pray to and be devoted to him.
    And this is suppose to be, in his belief, what first century Christianity was all about. This inspite of no evidence that this Mormonism in all of its ever changing forms ever existed before Smith invented it.
    So what has been Monson’s contribution to the prophetic history of the LDS church? Nothing and that’s by design. The prophet, as they say in the athletic world, does not have game.

  46. Mike R says:

    Falcon, I think the Paul Dunn episode is a great picture of how the LDS people have been
    misled in another way , a far more detrimental way . Dunn was found to have mixed lies
    into his message and yet the Mormon people failed to notice this all because of a spiritual
    witness they felt , a personal revelation , that what he was saying was truth .
    In like manner the Mormon people have embraced the ” restored ” gospel because of
    trusting their leaders’ testimony to be telling the truth about Jesus and salvation . Now
    Mormon apostles have claimed to offer the very same gospel that Paul taught , yet upon
    examination we find that they have mixed in their own latter days doctrinal innovations to it
    thus revising it which renders it ineffective to save , i.e. it’s another gospel— Gal 1:8 .
    Sadly but the majority of Mormons have’nt evaluated the ” restored ” gospel beyond what
    the Missionaries have shown them . Once they are baptized into the Church they become so
    busy with church activities that they simply trust their apostles teachings/ revelations to be
    accurate guidance , they try not to do their own thinking if it conflicts with what their leaders
    have taught over the pulpit or in church publications .
    The Mormons deserve to be free from this church ” system ” .
    Jesus stands ready to assist them because He loves the Mormon people .

  47. Kate says:

    “The LDS church is really the Mormons’ god; this and their own works.”

    Quote of the day. Notice how Shem said that Salvation comes only through the LDS church? To a true Christian this is utter and complete blasphemy. The reason they think this way is because in Mormonism, Jesus is not much different than they are. He’s a literal spirit offspring of the same god and one of his wives. The only difference is that one little thing called the atonement. They have demoted him to just one of them with a little specialness added in. He had a little different mission to accomplish on this earth but other than that, not much different. To Christians Jesus is God. Salvation comes only through Him. We worship Him. Mormons do not worship Jesus. They worship their Father god only. I wouldn’t have such a problem with them if they would just admit they have a totally different religion that has nothing whatever to do with Christianity. Stop calling themselves Christians because they do not worship Christ, and they don’t believe in the Christ of the Bible. Sadly they can’t do that. They need to piggy back onto Christianity to fool people into joining their false religion.

    “Jesus stands ready to assist them because He loves the Mormon people .”

    Look how many Mormons Jesus is assisting out of the LDS church. Amazing. There are so many of us leaving, I have read so many exit stories this year. The truth really does set us free.

  48. falcon says:

    Point me to where you are reading the exit stories of those leaving the LDS church. It’s really encouraging to learn that the truth about Mormonism and the LDS church is being “discovered” and being acted on. The leadership knows what’s happening. How do they hold on to their membership? Well maybe change. I don’t think so. I’m going for imposing more guilt on the membership and a whole lot of fear. The true believers could also crank-up the form of shunning that the LDS folks have perfected over the years; especially where families are concerned.

  49. Kate says:

    Oops, I linked to life after Mormonism not Life After Ministries.

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