Mormonism’s Sacred Temple Garments

In a move that has surprised Mormons and critics alike, in mid-October the LDS Church’s Newsroom site posted a video that literally looks at Mormonism’s “Sacred Temple Clothing.” Both temple robes (the outer clothing worn by Mormons during a temple endowment ceremony, known as “the robes of the holy priesthood”), and temple garments (worn by endowed Mormons underneath regular clothing), are discussed and displayed.

TempleApronThe video builds a context of various world religions and their uses of religious vestments, gestures, and rituals in which to frame Mormonism’s temple clothing.

“The nun’s habit. The priest’s cassock. The Jewish prayer shawl. The Muslim’s skullcap. The saffron robes of the Buddhist monk. All are part of a rich tapestry of human devotion to God.”

The video suggests another superficial parallel, one between Mormon temple robes and the Bible:

“The simple vestments combine religious symbolism with echoes of antiquity reflected in ancient writings from the book of Exodus.”

The video explains that Mormon temple garments (that are sometimes referred to as “magic underwear”) have “deep religious significance” to Latter-day Saints and represent “the sacred and personal aspect of their relationship with God and their commitment to live good, honorable lives.”

While it is surprising that the Mormon Church posted video footage of temple garments, it is not surprising that it actually said very little about the unique aspects of these garments.

FemaleTempleGarmentThe video states that temple garments are “similar in design to ordinary modest underclothing” yet neglects to mention that Mormon garments are distinct in that they are made with Masonic-like markings sewn into the cloth. In the Church’s video these markings are indistinguishable, but in this photo of women’s temple garments (at right) the sewn-in white markings have been highlighted in red to make them visible for the photo.

The video does not explain this, but the four markings on the temple garment correspond to markings also found on the veil in the temple endowment ceremony. On the garment they are “the mark of the square” (over the right breast), “the mark of the compass” over the left breast, “the navel mark” over the navel, and “the knee mark” over the knee cap of the right leg (the compass, square and level are prominent symbols used in Freemasonry). According to the Church’s Handbook of instructions for bishops and stake presidents, it is these markings that make the temple garment sacred.

The video states, “there is nothing magical or mystical about temple garments,” but avoids any discussion of the “protective” nature of these garments – another attribute that sets temple garments apart from spiritually significant clothing worn in other religions. Mormon assertions of the garments’ supernatural protection have led to the common (but disrespectful) nickname of “magic underwear,” an offensive reference to the sacred clothing that the video hopes to squelch. The official Church Handbook explains that properly worn temple garments protect members from “temptation and evil,” but members themselves believe the garments also protect them from physical harm, freely testifying of times when the garments have saved them from injury and death.

Another aspect of Mormonism’s sacred temple clothing that is unique in the greater context of world religions and their religious vestments is the specificity of official mandates that come with owning and wearing temple garments. The Church Handbook provides these explicit instructions:

Wearing and Caring for the Garment

Church members who have been clothed with the garment in a temple have taken upon themselves a covenant obligation to wear it according to the instructions given in the endowment. When issuing temple recommends, priesthood leaders should teach the importance of wearing the garment properly. Leaders also emphasize the blessings that are related to this sacred privilege. These blessings are conditioned on worthiness and faithfulness in keeping temple covenants.

The garment provides a constant reminder of the covenants made in a temple. When properly worn, it provides protection against temptation and evil. Wearing the garment is also an outward expression of an inward commitment to follow the Savior.

Endowed members should wear the temple garment both day and night. They should not remove it, either entirely or partially, to work in the yard or for other activities that can reasonably be done with the garment worn properly beneath the clothing. Nor should they remove it to lounge around the home in swimwear or immodest clothing. When they must remove the garment, such as for swimming, they should put it back on as soon as possible.

Members should not adjust the garment or wear it contrary to instructions in order to accommodate different styles of clothing. Nor should they alter the garment from its authorized design. When two-piece garments are used, both pieces should always be worn.

The garment is sacred and should be treated with respect at all times. Garments should be kept off the floor. They should also be kept clean and mended. After garments are washed, they should not be hung in public areas to dry. Nor should they be displayed or exposed to the view of people who do not understand their significance.

Members who have made covenants in the temple should be guided by the Holy Spirit to answer for themselves personal questions about wearing the garment…

Disposing of Garments and Temple Ceremonial Clothing

To dispose of worn out temple garments, members should cut out and destroy the marks. Members then cut up the remaining fabric so it cannot be identified as a garment. Once the marks are removed, the fabric is not considered sacred.

To dispose of worn-out temple ceremonial clothing, members should destroy the clothing by cutting it up so the original use cannot be recognized. (LDS Church Handbook of Instructions, Handbook 1, Stake President and Bishops 2010, page 15)

It has been noted on various online forums that the fact that Mormons wear religious clothing is not “weird.” Even the form that this clothing takes (i.e., underwear) is not really noteworthy. But “cultic weirdness” comes into the picture via the fact that if you are an endowed adult Mormon “someone else is telling you what sort of underwear you should be wearing, when you must wear it, how you must wear it, and when you are not worthy enough to wear it. And [then] checking up on whether or not you do as you are told. That’s the cultish part.”

Mormon temple garments (like Mormonism itself) fit comfortably into the very broad and superficial context of spiritual expression of religious devotion. But when we consider what makes Mormon temple garments unique we quickly come to the point where a comfortable fit ends. We discover once again that Mormonism is, in fact, a distinctly peculiar religion.

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
This entry was posted in LDS Church, Mormon Culture, Mormon Temple, Worthiness and tagged , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

79 Responses to Mormonism’s Sacred Temple Garments

  1. falcon says:

    OK, I get it!
    These garments were exactly what the first century Christians wore when they went to their (Christian) temples to perform rituals borrowed from Free Masonry. It has to be since Joseph Smith was said to have restored authentic first century Christianity along with the gospel that was lost.
    Or maybe I need to go back further. These were the garments that were worn by ancient Jews as they did temple work for the dead so that the dearly departed Jews could become Mormons in the next life.

    Let’s face it. There is no connection between LDS temples or their garments with either the OT Jews of the NT Christians. Joseph Smith manufactured himself a religion borrowing ideas from here and there and pulled it off because his believers believed what he said.
    There’s no excuse for Mormons today to be in the dark about the occult nature of their religion (see occult symbols on their temples) or Smith.

  2. MJP says:

    Question: when did LDS leadership prescribe the wearing of these garments, ie, under Smith, Young, or someone more recent?

  3. falcon says:

    You have to actually go back to the apostles! The “restoration” had a slow roll-out.

    “If you could go through the temple, the ceremony there, it goes back to the same ceremony in Solomon’s day, all those sacred temples back then. Not everybody was allowed in there. But the promises we make to, to God, you know, this ‘magical underwear’ or whatever you wanna call it, all it is, is an outward expression of an inward commitment.” (Donny Osmund)

  4. MJP says:

    Falcon, lol. That is the claim, yes, but when was that claim made by LDS leadership?

  5. cattyjane says:

    What a load of nonsense! Only the levite priests had special garments and it certainly wasnt these stupid things! No mixing of linen and cotten is allowed. Women certainly didnt have temple garments because they were not allowed in the same areas as the men anyway. The only piece of garment that was commanded for all the sons of Israel regardless of being a pevite priest was the tzit tzit or tassels that were to be hung from the four corners of the garment in order to bring to rememberance the commandments and covenant. Interesting how they dont care about that one even tho it says for every generation to come. This is the stuff that really gets under my skin because people who havent studied the true levital priesthood, or temple will buy into this heresy. It is complete nonsense and has no resemblence to the original temple rituals pr priesthood. This is where the LDS church really reveals their ignorance.

  6. falcon says:

    Do you mean to tell me that Donny Osmond is wrong when he says all of this LDS hocus pocus goes back to Solomon?
    You are right! All of this is knowable. How long would it take to read about the OT Temple and ceremonies. About five minutes could get it done.
    So in addition to the NT, all of the Mormonism got left out of the OT too I suppose. Remember the Smith claim that after the death of the apostles, the gospel left the earth. Not only that but medieval Catholic monks left Mormonism out of the NT at least; probably the OT too. Must be because you can’t find it there.
    That’s why, BTW, the modern day prophet is more important than Scripture.

  7. Rick B says:

    Will these work like a bullet proof vest, or protect are military during war?

  8. MJP says:

    Rick, why did Ephesians suddenly come to mind after reading your post?

  9. Rick B says:

    Mormon underwear is not the whole armor of God. It might be armor for a child’s Halloween costume.

  10. Ironman1995 says:

    LOL, back in 2011 when i left the church i would come here and other places and engage Mormon’s, as the time has passed i come here spend a min or so, and see something that makes me laugh at when i believed that or this and then move on and live .

    I know there are those who are out there some day that will find there way out and when they do, they will look back, laugh and move on and live .

    Keep up the good work Sharon , Eric and Aaron

  11. lovehawaii says:

    I don’t even know where to begin on this..
    Growing up I had no idea you HAD to wear them or were expected to until I went thru the temple. I also had no idea I would have to wear the green apron and all the other stuff on my wedding day. After I did go thru the temple I never understood why I had to put garments back on right when I got out of the shower. My mother always made me feel scared like God was gonna strike me with lightening for not wearing them. She even looked at them and told me if the shirt wasn’t tucked in I was doing it wrong. Garments made me afraid of God when I wasn’t afraid before going thru the temple. I don’t understand why you suddenly need protection after going thru the temple but not before. Other questions I have are..
    -Why must you burn the symbols of the garments?
    -Why do you have to wear them at night?
    I took off my garments a long time ago and even though I was scared God hasn’t killed me yet. 🙂 I do remember I went to the doctor for a check up not long after removing them and when the doctor said I was fine I didn’t believe him. How could my blood tests come back fine? I kept asking him questions and then he thought I had anxiety and told me he could write me a prescription for anxiety meds. I thought 100 percent that God was going to punish me. I am happy now that I am not so afraid or scared. I still have garments in my garage and haven’t gotten rid of them yet. Do you think I really have to cut up the marks? Also, I read something a while ago about amulets and talismans and something about having them is very bad and that you will be happier if you destroy it or get rid of that kind of stuff. Is it bad I have garments in my garage still?

  12. lovehawaii says:

    I also never liked when people have said that garments have saved them or protected them. It’s just a piece of cloth right? Only God protects and saves yes? I don’t understand why people say (like one bishop of mine) that it prevented death in a car accident or whatever.

  13. falcon says:

    WOW! What an amazing story!!!! Best I’ve heard in a long time.
    I’m not now nor have I ever been a Mormon so I don’t have any real insight into what it’s like to be a garment wearer or to experience the kind of fear and anxiety that this program has/is causing you.
    Just me, but I’d burn those suckers!
    I wouldn’t have anything with an occult symbol in my house.
    But, and here’s the important thing, have you clothed yourself with the Lord Jesus Christ? Are you washed in the Blood, filled with the Spirit, made righteous through saving faith in Jesus. These garments have no power over you.
    I admit to a certain amount of paranoia when it comes to anything attached to the occult. However being in Christ gives comfort, peace and confidence that greater is He who is in you, than he who is in the world.
    At one point in the Book of Acts, the apostle Paul has some folks come and burn their occult related objects (Acts 19: 18-20).
    Anyway, having studied Mormonism and Joseph Smith’s involvement in folk magic, as were his family and friends, I have concluded that the foundation of this religion is the occult. It’s all covered by very religious talk and a devout, sincere and dedicated membership who, for-the-most-part, have no idea of what Smith was all about.
    Peace to you in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

  14. Ralph says:


    It may have surprised people, but it possibly shows that the LDS church is becoming more aware of its need to use the internet, which many on this site have wanted for a while. Who knows, there may be something soon about some of the temple ceremonies to address what is already on the internet about them.

    As far as the garments go, I have always taught in classes that it is a spiritual protection, as that is the official doctrine of the church. All the rest about physical/personal protection is just folklore. I just bring up the fact that I was wearing my garments the night I broke my back and that a couple of years later I was not wearing them when I was on my bike and got hit by a car and only suffered an abrasion on my shoulder and knee. Heavenly Father will protect us if something is not meant to happen, its not the garment that does it.

  15. MJP says:

    Ralph, maybe. Maybe.

    However, do you wear them regularly as the instructions appear to require? If so, why? What benefit do you get from them, or is it because they are required? If not, why not and what jeopardy does that place you in concerning your place in Mormon afterlife?

  16. falcon says:

    What kind of spiritual protection do you need? I’d say the fact that the symbols on the garment are occult in nature, you’ve pretty much decided to attract a certain spiritual force.
    Here’s your problem Ralph and it gets to the restoration. These garments are peculiar to Mormons, at least the LDS/FLDS. Early Christians didn’t have temples. They didn’t have, therefore, temple ceremonies. They didn’t wear “garments”. So in-other-words, the restoration is phoney.
    You talk about “heavenly father”. If you really have a desire to know who God is, you’ll put aside the millions and billions of Mormon heavenly fathers, who don’t exist anyway, and come to a knowledge of God.

  17. falcon says:

    These symbols……………..that appear on the under-garment that Ralph believes protects him spiritually.
    Consider this:
    “I was amazed at how well the occult symbolism had been carried through on the stitched marks: the temple garment was a textbook study in Luciferian symbolism. I was well acquainted with the Masonic symbols because at a certain point in my Wiccan development, my teachers told me to seek Masonic initiation, so I did. I went through Blue Lodge, and then through both York and Scottish rites all the way to the Shrine – which is as high as most Masons go in the United States.”

    “The Masonic compass is stitched over the left breast of the Mormon temple garment. In esoteric Masonry I was taught that the compass represents the sacred Goddess. This is because the compass is used to describe a circle in geometry, and the circle is the consummate symbol of the Goddess in Wicca. (4) Hence all coven ritual is conducted in a circle. As a matter of fact, the “point” of the sacred coven circle actually is the womb of the high priestess who represents the Goddess. The circle then is a symbol of the Queen of Heaven; and the compass is her chief tool.”

    “Over the right breast of the Mormon garment is a square. The right hand side is masculine and sacred to the Horned God (who we in Wicca eventually learned was Lucifer). (7) The square is sacred to Lucifer because of its phallic connotations, and the Fellowcraft candidate in Masonry is challenged on his right breast by the point of the square.” (8)

    “…….the navel mark of the garment resembles a gauge or ruler, which is the Masonic symbol for the “Middle Pillar” of the Qabalistic Tree of Life. (9) (See Tree of Life chart). Just as the right and left hands parts of the body in occultisms are male and female respectively; so the Middle Pillar corresponds to the center of the body – the head, solar plexus, navel and genitals.” (10)

    I don’t want to hear any of this business about “But our symbols are different. They don’t mean the same thing.” The demons don’t know that, do they? There is in the occult, a beautiful side of evil which is used to seduce people into thinking that they are in light, but it’s really darkness.

  18. PaleRider says:

    “…as the time has passed i come here spend a min or so, and see something that makes me laugh at when i believed that or this and then move on and live…I know there are those who are out there some day that will find there way out and when they do, they will look back, laugh and move on and live”.

    I chuckled myself when I read this. I agree, and I appreciate the work being done here to bring souls out of the darkness of religious ignorance, and into the arms of a loving God.

    As a side, I always got rashes under my arms when wearing mine, terribly irritating.

    As a side, I always got rashes under my arms when wearing mine, terribly irritating.

  19. Ralph says:


    You said “I don’t want to hear any of this business about “But our symbols are different. They don’t mean the same thing.” The demons don’t know that, do they?

    Wow, what a comment. It show a complete disregard of the Bible. It states in the Bible in James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    Then there were all the devils who recognised Jesus and asked Him to leave them alone, and Jesus commanded them not to tell anyone who He was.

    And finally there are all the times in the Bible where the Devil has mimicked what God has done so he can deceive people – the first couple of plagues and signs that Moses showed Pharaoh were replicated by Pharaoh’s magicians (eg leprosy, sticks turning into snakes, water turning into blood); and how he can look similar to an angel of light; the fortune teller girl that was ‘cured’ by either Peter or Paul was very good at predicting the future because of the devil in her; etc.

    The best way to deceive is to mimic and look very similar to what you want people to turn away from – which is what you lot are accusing the LDS church of doing.

    No you are wrong, the devils know what the symbols mean if they mean something different, they just want people, like you to dismiss them as you just did by using them in another context and saying that is the only way they should be used.

    Just remember, the pentagram was used more than the crucifix/cross as a symbol of Christianity in the early church.

  20. falcon says:

    Your post makes absolutely no sense. It’s the typical Mormon logic that we are treated to here when ever you folks show up. Let’s deconstruct your post.
    The “devils” who recognized Jesus as the Messiah had saving faith? Is that what you are telling us?

    With all of your examples, you’re making my case for me. You don’t see it even though you present a picture of what Mormonism is all about which is total occult domination.

    All we really need to know is that Mormons have supplanted God for millions and billions of gods and that they claim they will become gods also. I’ve documented well in the past and from Mormon sources the occult spirit appearances in the temples. Joseph Smith’s magic seer stone was placed on the altar of the Manti temple during the days leading up to the dedication.
    Ralph, seriously, you have no clue what you’re talking about. You are under a diluted influence of darkness and you don’t even see it. The final cost to you and your family is something you need to consider.
    I think you need to read this article.

  21. cattyjane says:


    Ok, confession time. I was not a good mormon. I joined the church when I was 19. I had only been out of my parents house for at year and I was just starting college. I did not want to obey all the rules or be interrogated by the bishop so I never did all the temple stuff. Then I got married to a non-member, so again no temple stuff. After my divorce I started investigating the church and considering returning but this time I was going to be obedient and do things right. It wasn’t to long after that I discovered how things didn’t line up with scripture in the church. So I cannot give some line about how I understand, and I had a hard time letting go of my garments or anything like that, but I can do you one better and tell you what our Creator and Master says about such things. I think that is what matters more than any opinion or story that I can offer you.

    Jeremiah 10 is an amazing chapter to read about the idols and doctrines of the nations/gentiles/foreigners. Verse 2 states, “Thus said the Lord: Do not learn to go the way of the nations.” Vs 5 states, “Be not afraid of them (idols), for they can do no harm; Nor is it in them to do any good.” Vs 14-16 states, “For his molten image is a deceit-There is no breath in them. They are delusion, a work of mockery; In their hour of doom, they shall perish. Not like these is the Portion of Jacob; For it is He who formed all things, And Israel is His very own tribe; Lord of Hosts is His name.”

    The Almighty is telling us here that any graven image or idol that a person trust in for protection or fears is a mockery to the one who formed all things, the Lord of Hosts.

    Isaiah 44:9-28 Is very similar to the Jeremiah chapter. In verse 19 it states that the created images that man trust in are an abhorrence to the Lord. Verse 20 states “A deluded mind has led him astray, And he cannot save himself; He never says to himself, “The thing in my hand is a fraud!”

    God formed Israel and gave them His commandments by His own voice at Mt Sinai. Pagans form their own gods and create their own customs and traditions that are apart from those given by the God of Israel.

    When we discover who the true God is we are to abandon any sort of worship that is not connected with Him. When Joshua led the Israelites into Canaan and took it from the Canaanites they were commanded to destroy all pagan worship items. Deut 12:2-5 He specifically states that we are not to worship the Lord in a like manner. Even if a person takes one of their traditions and adds the Lords name to it, it is not to be done. He even warns them again in Deut 12:29-31 and Deut 13:1 He warns of being lured into their ways after they take over their land. He even warns them not to ask about their worship practices. He states that they perform abhorrent acts that are detestable to Him.

    What more do I need to say? You know now that Mormonism does not worship the true God that is spoken of in scripture. Its a fraud and a delusion. The temples that they perform their rituals in are not even a shadow of the temple that was spoken about in scripture. What you have in your garage are remnants of pagan worship. If you have an understanding of who the true God is than you should be disgusted by them. They hold no power and no authority over you but they are a disgrace to the God that you now serve. You should do just as He commanded the Israelites in Canaan and destroy any remnant of that pagan worship.

    That is why I was so insistent to have my name removed from the church once I discovered the truth and realized how horrible anything outside the truth was to our Creator. We are not allowed to put anything before His face. I needed to completely disassociate myself with that pagan religion in the same way that Ruth disassociated herself and became one of Israel. She was a Moabite, not Israelite, but her mother in law was an Israelite. She told her “My people will be your people, and my God will be your God.” She left her family, their gods and their land in order to join herself with Israel. That is what we must do. Ruth 1:16

  22. Ralph says:


    You said the devils dont know the difference between how people use the same symbol for different things. I was showing you that they do recognise the difference. They know the difference between what God wants something to mean and what they want it to mean. So yes, I can make the claim that the symbols we use mean something different and you need to recognise that there is a difference in meaning and acknowledge that when ever you refer to it, regardless of whether its the symbols on the garments, the symbols on our temples or the symbol of baptism by immersion, which was originally a pagan practice.

    So as I have said in the past, a symbol means what the person who uses it wants it to mean.

    Look at the Bible – the devil was a snake in the Garden of Eden and most people use a smake to connote evil because of it. But the Moses was cimmanded to make a brass snake to save the people of Israel and it was symbolic of Jesus. These days it is still used as a symvol of medicine.

    There are other examples in the Bible but I think I have given enough.

  23. cattyjane says:


    That is not true! God does not accept mans traditions! Jeraboam is a prime example of someone who tried to imitate the feasts and practices that were commanded by God and put their own spin on it. Lets see what happened to him.

    1 Kings 12:15-33 He made two alters for the people to bring offerings to. He told them “This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt”. He even created a new feast for the people to observe vs 33 “which he had contrived of his own mind to establish a festival for the Israelites.” He even had the nerve to appoint priests who were NOT of the Levite bloodline.

    Now lets ask ourselves this question. Since the people brought offerings to these alters, which God did not command them to build, and thought of them in the same way as they did the alters in Jeruselem, would God still acknowledge their sacrifice? Since the feast was similar to the one God commanded, would God acknowledge their created feast? Would the priests prayers be heard by God and their offerings be accepted since they were not of the commanded bloodline? Can our man made feasts and man made symbols mean the same thing as the ones that God creates? Can our creations measure the same as Gods?

    First Kings 14:7-14 states that God saw Jeroboams actions worse than any King before him. He states “you have cast Me behind your back”. In other words Jeroboam placed himself before God. God destroyed the House of Jeroboam. He called them dung and stated that all who associated with them would be devoured by dogs and vultures.

    I realize in the society we live in today God is made out to be some weak submissive genie that accepts whatever ideas and commentary you want to hang in front of his face. But those ideas do not line up with what it says in the scripture. We do not tell God what is and isn’t ok. We do not say “I realize these are pagan things but I have given them a new meaning, I hope your ok with that”. That is not the God in the Old Testament or in the New Testament. That type of behavior is worthy of repentance. To place yourself in the seat of God and declare that you will add images to his instructions of how we are to come before him is pure blasphemy! You do not get to add to any of his words!

    By the way. Do some research on Mikveh and you might find out where the Baptism thing came from.

  24. falcon says:

    You missed my point. That’s not what I was saying. What I was saying is that you can have the best of intentions with your occult symbols but they still have their roots in the occult. The devil isn’t all that concerned about your ignorance. The demons will attach themselves regardless. Do you get it now?
    Here’s your next problem and that is “God”. You don’t know who God is. So you’re basically a pagan.
    What you’re into isn’t first century Christianity. What you’ve allowed yourself to be hooked into is a hybrid religion invented by a guy with a magic rock. What your sect believes, teaches and practices bears no resemblance to first century Christianity. Yours is a 19th century invention by a false prophet.
    God keeps bringing you back here Ralph. The hope and prayer of all of us, most of whom are former Mormons, is that you will shed the veil of confusion and come to know who God is and in so doing, secure salvation for yourself and your family.

  25. falcon says:

    So Ralph……………………..
    You need to see the entire context in which these occult symbols that you wear appears. The god of these symbols is some formerly sinful man from another planet who by obeying the Mormon system present in the universe became a god. He has a father god and mother god who procreated him as they did, who knows how many other gods.
    So right there we see the demonic influence of your belief system. It rejects God and creates a god more to its liking. This was all Joseph Smith doing, who by the way, was up to his eye balls in the occult. The symbols that you wear close to your body reflects this false god.
    I really don’t care how sincere you are Ralph. Your symbols reflect a belief system in a god Smith created.
    Do you think God simply says, “Well this folks were deceived so I’ll just let it go.” I don’t think so.
    You’d do well to consider your sin in rejecting God Ralph and the cost to you and your family.

  26. cattyjane says:


    I commented to you but it is still in moderation. Baptism is not a pagan practice. It is nothing more than the ceremonial washing’s that occurred in the Mikvah waters. Archaeologists have uncovered numbers of these in and around Jerusalem. There were many reasons why people had to do this and women especially. This always had to be done before a person could bring and offering to the temple. There are many verses that speak of washing with fresh water which would be living waters such as springs. Exodus 30:20 speaks of them being commanded to wash with water before they entered the Tabernacle so that they would not die. Leviticus 15:13 speaks of a man who is unclean and must bathe himself with fresh water in order to be clean. Remember that Johns baptism was a baptism of Repentance. This was happening during a great revival of their time. They were returning to bring people back to observance of the Lords commandments because they knew that they were living in the days that Messiah was promised to come. Lev 16:4 talks about a special washing with water for Aaron, the High Priest on the Day of Atonement.

    Think about the many times that Jesus stated he was the living waters. Now relate that to the cleansing that must occur before someone can enter into the Tabernacle. He is the living water that makes us pure before the Father in Heaven when he stands before us as our high priest. Just as the high priest who entered into the inner room had to be pure, so must our high priest now be pure in order to make atonement for us. Zech 13:1 states that on that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jeruselem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.

    John 7:38 states that whoever believes in me will have rivers of living water flowing from within him. John 7:37 he states let anyone who is thristy come to me and drink.

  27. falcon says:

    Your growth in knowledge is commendable! I am continually amazed that you’re the same person who began posting here, skeptical about what was being offered regarding the truth about Mormonism and Joseph Smith. I am confident that He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it in the Day of Christ Jesus Our Lord.

    Now this is what Ralph really doesn’t get; the connection between the pagan Mormon god and the occult. We’ve been over this countless times with him and he’s still as spiritually blind as a bat. That’s a spiritual shroud that he’s under that only the Holy Spirit can remove.
    We’ve told him about the “god” that Joseph Smith identified in one of the BoA facsimiles which was an Egyptian fertility god Min. This “god” is sitting on a throne exposing himself. This is who Joseph Smith identified as “god”. Come on now. How difficult is it to connect the dots.

    When Joseph Smith started out, in the days of the BoM, he had a fairly traditional orthodox view of the nature of god. Then Smith got stupid. But given his propensity for the magic arts, it’s pretty predictable that eventually he’d go off the rails. His involvement in Free Masonry led him to include their rituals and symbols into his ever evolving religion.
    I’m encouraged that most of our posters here are former Mormons. It tells me that their is more than a little hope for Ralph. We will continue to pray that God remove the shroud that is prohibiting Ralph from leaving his pagan god and coming to a relationship with the Father through the Son.

  28. falcon says:

    When we examine the subject of the occult symbols on the LDS under garment, what we are exposing is the symptom of a much larger problem with this religion.
    We can’t point out enough that if folks don’t get God right, everything that follows will be pure folly. Mormons like to make all sorts of excuses for Joseph Smith and the BoA, identifying the Egyptian fertility god sitting on a throne exposing himself.
    This all puts Mormons in a very uncomfortable position. They have to come up with all sorts of contorted reasoning to make Smith’s “revelation” acceptable. If they dump the BoA and thus the fertility god Min, then they call into question Smith’s claims of being a prophet. Once that goes then the entire Mormon house of cards tumbles.
    There has been a movement of late for LDS apologists to down grade their prophets. That way all of the truly bizarre and embarrassing pronouncements by these guys can be chalked-up to opinion. But that really doesn’t work if these guys are suppose to be hearing from the Mormon god.
    Let’s face it. These Mormon prophets are flying solo. You can’t hear from a god who doesn’t exist. What these prophets have always brought forth are just random thoughts that are clanking around in their imaginations. Thus we have Smith’s BoA with it’s Egyptian fertility god identified as the Mormon god.
    Try as they may to excuse and wiggle out of the obvious, the facts are that what Smith brought forth has it’s foundation in the occult. The Mormon faux heavenly father and his wife (heavenly mother), while making Mormons feel good in their thinking of them, are a nightmare fantasy to come for those relying on them for eternal life.

  29. falcon says:

    To any Mormon who may have stumbled upon this site…………………….this may be new information to you. As you stare down at your under-garment and consider the symbols on it, what do you think? Do you think that these symbols are some ancient spiritual protection emblems? Think again!
    The drum I’ve been beating here is that when you consider these symbols that you are holding close to your body, think about where they came from. Does it surprise you that when Joseph Smith created his religion, it was something entirely different from what it is today. This isn’t due to “continuous revelation”. What it’s due to is Joseph Smith descent into a spiritual abyss that is not unlike others who have claimed to have revelation and a real true message.
    One of the unique features of Mormonism, as practiced by the LDS/FLDS sects, is that the prophets revelation is as good as, if not better than scripture. This was Smith’s game. Claim that the true gospel was lost upon the death of the original apostles. Claim to have had spirit visitations which resulted in a restoration of what has been lost. Claim that the Bible, which is normative for Christianity, was corrupted and not translated correctly.
    If the “prophet” can get folks to accept those premises without question, BINGO!, he’s on the road to creating his own cult. All it takes is people who won’t question because, it is said, the leader will never lead us astray. When the prophet speaks the thinking has been done. Our group is the “one true church”.
    And whatever you do, don’t ever, ever question anything. If you do the devil is going to get you! BOO!

  30. cattyjane says:


    Thanks for the compliment by the way. I have considered going back and looking at my old posts just to remind myself of where I started out but I haven’t had the nerve to do it.

  31. falcon says:

    I think I’m going to ask Sharon if we can have a thread dedicated only to your posts showing the evolution of your thinking. I’m serious. I think it would be very instructive for those “lurkers” who come here and read. These are folks who are at some point in the journey you have taken.
    I remember how combative (sorry) you were initially. Over time, because you were open and willing to check things out, your perspective and faith changed totally.
    Actually, I thought there was no way you’d find your way out of the mind-set you had. Look at you now. You’ve become very knowledgeable and somewhat of an expert on a couple of topics. I don’t want to get too giddy here, but I don’t hear you talking too much about the Christian’s relationship with the Law any more. Maybe you’ve just decided to not go that direction with your posts.
    None-the-less it’s been a real joy to watch your “walk” develop.

  32. cattyjane says:


    😉 If you do that Im not sure if I would be able to read them but if they help someone else than its worth it.

    I have met some amazing people in the last two years with a lot of knowledge and understanding about scripture who were kind enough and patient enough to teach me. I have been told by some of them that I am the most stubborn and strong willed person they have ever met! 🙂 I just wanted to make sure that what I was being taught was truth.I know that its because of the prayers of friends and family that the Almighty continued to show mercy and not allow me to completely harden my heart against His Messiah.

    Speaking of my viewpoint on the Law, I will try to explain where I stand.
    I believe Hebrews chapter 3-4 sums it up quite well. We are warned not to harden our hearts during this time and turn away from obedience toward God. I believe obedience, right intent in our actions, and an unyielding heart are necessary. From my studies so far, I know that it is only through Messiah (because he is our high priest) that we are able to approach the Most High and receive mercy. Apart from Messiah there is no hope and there is no salvation.

  33. falcon says:

    Very good. Stubbornness has a positive corollary that I can’t think of right now. In-other-words, if it’s used in a certain way it’s positive. When it’s extended too far, it becomes negative. It becomes hard hardheadedness and an unteachable spirit. Since you are obviously teachable………………..

    I think the discussions we have had on the “Law” centered on the Mosaic law and Christian legalism. The latter are Christian religious sects that get so into rules and regulations (imposed from the top by the leaders on the members) that the people lose their joy in the Lord. There are also Christian religious groups that want to follow what the Jews of Jesus time followed……to some extent. Paul pretty much takes care of that notion in several of his letters to the believers.
    I’ve had a taste of legalism and living in grace. I’ll take grace any day. I’m not free to sin with impunity, but I understand the importance of a strong moral code and walking in the Spirit.

  34. cattyjane says:

    I wish you and i lived in the same town then we could go have a coffee and i would sit down and show you exactly what law Paul was speaking of. I am not by any means saying that my efforts towards keeping the Sabbath or observing passover are counted as points toward my righteousness in the world to come. Instead my actions serve as a witness to others in showing that my God is the God of Israel. I have a scripture for that. ill have to get it later because im on my phone. All the feasts and sabbaths tell a story. They help us remember and acknowledge the One who is greater than us. We remember his deliverence and the promises that He made. When we keep the Sabbath and use that day to learn about him, serve others, and care for eachother, we are reminded of that day when we will be led into the eternal Sabbath rest by Messiah that has been promised from creation Hebrews 3-4. Keeping the Sabbath and observing the feasts are not a burdon but a blessing and Gods people have always seen them as such. They are not Jewish feasts. The word Jew or Jewish was not even around at that time. These are the times and seasons spoken of in Genesis and described in Lev 23. These are the feasts and sabbaths that are eternal, not created by man but commanded by God himself with just as much authority as the 10 commandments were given. Our actions of observing them do not guarentee us mercy on the day of judgement, but the One they speak about does promise a deliverer in that last day.

    What i find interesting is how willing people are to adopt mans holidays, days and times. Before two ywears ago I was the same way. People dont see Christmas, Easter, Fourth of July, or Thanksgiving as a burdon or yoke but take a look at peoples bank accounts after these feasts and i would call it a huge yoke! Why is it easier to observe man made traditions that come with a bigger price tag and no spiritual context than to observe the perfect feasts that we were blessed with by God himself?

  35. Rick B says:

    were no longer under the law. If we choose not to follow the Sabbath we dont have to. Jesus was accused of breaking the sabbath for healing people. Jesus said Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Jesus also rebuked the same leaders saying they also broke the Sabbath laws for pulling a sheep out of a pit, or watering the animal.

    Jesus pointed out how priests in the old testament broke the Sabbath as did king david. I choose to live under grace, not a burden of law. I also dont celebrate and holiday you mentioned. I dont spend a dime on them.

  36. cattyjane says:

    Dont cofuse Talmudic law with the laws of Torah. Remember that the Pharisees had Talmudic laws, laws created by man, and Torah. Saving a life is permissable on the Sabbath under Talmud and Torah. Thats why he asked them the question of, “would you not save your sheep, than how much more valuable is the life of a man”. He wasnt condeming them and saying they were breaking the sabbath. He was showing them that saving a life on sabbath is allowed, even commanded by scripture. Thays why they didnt argue back. All priests worked on Sabbath because they had to. They had to work in the temple. It wasnt breaking sabbath, it was doing the work of God. The scripture of sabbath was created for man not man for the sabbath means that it was given for us as a day of rest. This goes back to interpreting what the eternal sabbath is. Think about what Yeshua/Jesus says, I go to prepare a place for you. Now look at Hebrews 3-4. The eternal rest is the Sabbath rest that is being prepared for us right now. We observe Sabbath here as a way of looking toward the eternal sabbath rest that is being prepared for us. One day we will never chase after senseless cares of this world or watch nations destroy and exploit people and defy the creator of this world. One day we will rest in His eternal Sabbath and serve Him and all will say Holy, Holy, Holy are you Lord God King of the Universe!

    What true observace of Sabbath is: Isaiah 56 and 58. We obstain from doing evil, we share our food with the hungry, we untie the chains of injustice, and provide shelter to the poor, we do not oppress or participate in malicious talk. We do not qurrel or fight. We do not exploit workers or or work at our own occupations or strike bargens. Instead we call the Sabbath Holy and approach it in humbleness, caring for one another in the name of the Lord.

  37. Rick B says:

    I’m no longer under the law, but under grace. If you want to follow the law then go for it. But remember, you must follow them all, not pick and choose, and like with the Sabbath be stoned to death for not doing it, like the man picking up sticks, and stone others who break the law. Good luck with that. I have been to Israel twice. I love Israel and the people and pray daily for them, but they are hypocrites. They daily break the laws. I had pork over their, they used to call it things like, penguin meat, or short cow, but now they simply admit its pork. The list is long of the laws they break, simply because its impossible to keep them. Thats why Jesus set us free from the law and now were under grace.

  38. cattyjane says:

    You hearing but not understanding. You cannot base another persons level of observance on whether or not the commandment is valid. Based on how quick your response was, I can see that you did not even read the passages i posted. If you did read them, you certainly didn’t take much time to evaluate the information presented. There is so much depth in the word of God. No commandment was given without reason. Every commandment given by God is good and He tells us to call His Sabbath day Holy. Rather than trying to be right in this discussion, why not do some research on it. Sincerly pray and ask God to show you the truth about the Sabbath day. I have many scriptures if you want to look at them. God has to show you but you have to be humble enough to consider that there migjt be some things that you dont have a full understanding of. We are all learning and we will never understand it all until we are with Him and taught by Him.

  39. MJP says:


    “There is so much depth in the word of God. No commandment was given without reason. Every commandment given by God is good…” I agree fully with this comment, and even that the Sabbath is holy. However, I wonder what role Messiah, as you call him, plays in this. I notice that you do not call Messiah Jesus, so I am not sure we share the same understanding of the messiah.

    You then say this: “God has to show you but you have to be humble enough to consider that there migjt be some things that you dont have a full understanding of. We are all learning and we will never understand it all until we are with Him and taught by Him.”

    Be careful with this one, because we can say the same things concerning our understanding of Scripture and of Jesus, and we all know Mormons say the same thing (this is what the burning in the bosom is supposed to be). And of course, we must all be open to the leading of the Spirit– that’s kind of a non-sequitor. And we are all learning, and we understand we will never, in this life, ‘get’ all of his teachings.

    What we have to look at is scripture, though, and part of that scripture is a set of letters and other writings of the earliest Christians, even beyond the author of Hebrews. Or do you not view the rest of the NT as scripture?

  40. Chiam says:

    Does the Mormon church teach that a person must go through the temple ceremony and wear the undergarments in order to be in the very presence of God or in their view the highest level of heaven?

  41. Ralph says:


    Sorry for the late response but I have been busy. Here is a link to a, what I believe and they claim, to be a Christian site about baptism. It states that the ancient Babylonians and Egyptians had baptisms in their rituals before the Israelites/Jews did. Sometimes they performed it with water, other times with blood.
    I do believe that the Jews practiced baptism before the NT, else they would not have flocked to John to be baptised, but it was in existence as a token/ritual before the Jews used it. Circumcision was also practiced before Abraham was commanded to do it as a token of faith.


    The symbols only have the power that people ascribe to them, not the devils/demons. As I said, the serpent was a symbol of both the devil and Jesus. Does that mean that the demons attached themselves to the symbol of the brass serpent that the Israelites used to be healed by God? No. But the people did pervert it and started worshipping it instead of God and so it was destroyed. If a symbol is used by God to mean something, that is what it means in that context and nothing else. But if people decide to use it for something else then that is what it means for them, not God. Take the Bible for instance, there are many symbols in there – its the alphabet, making words. Then look at any book about Satanism or witchcraft, they use the same symbols and same words. Does that mean that the demons can now attach themselves to the Bible because the use the same or similar symbols? To sumarise – God can use a symbol to mean one thing and the devil can use the same to mean another – it is the people and their use of it that gives the symbol the ‘good’ or ‘bad’ power, not the demons.

  42. cattyjane says:

    Everything does have to line up with scripture. I dont know if you and i have the same idea about the Messiah or not. That can be quite an indepth discussion. What i have noticed with many people who profess christianity as their religion is that they become very attached to their doctrines. Sometimes so attached than even when scripture is shown in context to go against that doctrine they are blinded and refuse to see it. I have heard people say that the Jews are blinded, or the Mormons are blinded, or the Muslims are blinded. I think many Christians are blinded to by man made traditions and doctrins that have been added to scripture. Its no more innocent than the book of Mormon or the Talmud.
    Show me where it says Jesus was born at Christmas. Show me Easter or the word trinity in scripture. Show me where Jesus said after he rose again that all the commandments regarding the feasts and the sabbaths were no longer necessary. Show me where the Sabbath was changed from the seventh day to the first day.

    Jeremiah 31 speaks about the new covenant. It states that the laws would be put upon our hearts that we would obey them. It doesnt say that we wouldnt have to do them any more. It was saying they would be close to us and inside us so that we wouldnt sin against Him.

    His instructions are good and they bring life to those who obey them.

  43. Rick B says:

    Catty jane,
    On some issues Like Christmas and Easter and things like that, your making a big deal over nothing and getting all worked up. Are you saved vs not saved if you follow Christmas or not and believe Jesus was Born in December? As I said, I dont follow them. To me every day is Easter, since It was the Jesus coming back from the dead that sealed the deal for eternal Life.

    Also I’m just happy Jesus was Born, I dont care what the exact day is, who cares. Go to Isreal and you will see the four Original Burial tombs where Jesus was Born. I dont care which one is the one He was buried in, since it was only a few days stay for Him. He rose from the dead and left the tomb, does it matter which tomb He used? No.

  44. Rick B says:

    When you said, People claim Muslims are Blind, Jews are blind, Mormons are Blind Etc, The Bible tells us the Jews are Blind and their is a veil over their eyes, But If I remember correctly, you said you dont trust the teachings of Paul or even except them. So you reject a big portion of both Scripture and what Jesus said. Also The Bible might not use the words Rapture and Trinity, but we see the concept of these things taught in scripture.

  45. Rick B says:

    When Jesus was talking with some religious leaders He said,

    John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    Jesus was saying the O.T speaks of Him, The Passover is about Him, He is our pass over lamb. The Great I AM speaking out of the Burning Bush was Jesus, many more examples. Now Jesus came to free us from the Law and simply believe upon Him.

    Dont get me wrong, but we still follow the law, it’s just as Jesus said, The law is all summed up into Love God and love our neighbor. No more laws.

  46. falcon says:

    So where did Joseph Smith get his symbols from? Is it not true he practiced the magic arts? Is it not true that he used a magic seer stone to look for buried treasure in the ground? He claimed he could look into the ground with his magic stone and see buried treasure there. He got hauled into court for doing this and taking money by telling people he could use his stone for such a purpose.
    You’re really missing the point, perhaps on purpose or because you are spiritually deaf and blind because of the spirit that has deceived you. As I have often said, all I need to know is who is the “god” that is the object of worship and the spirit can be easily discerned. So if we have a false prophet who was heavily into the magic arts, “revealing” a new god who isn’t “God” and this false prophet then provides symbols used in the occult, what might we surmise that it all means? This isn’t rocket science Ralph
    I know you feel you have had spiritual experiences and that you are given great comfort with your faux religion. We continue to pray for you that you might come to know God and to reject the false pagan god that you worship.

  47. falcon says:

    …………….and Ralph
    Here’s the clincher. While Mormons embrace occult symbols and try to convince us that they really don’t mean what they mean, they reject the cross of Christ as a symbol. Isn’t that just a little bit of a concern? The apostle Paul said that he was not ashamed of the cross of Christ. But Mormons certainly are. But let’s take it even one step further. Mormons don’t see the cross as the symbol and place of redemption and atonement. Unbelievable! Mormons of the LDS persuasion try to make a case that the atonement really took place in the Garden the night before.
    So your sect embraces occult symbols, you reject the cross, you change the place of the atonement and most significant of all, you reject God and His Christ for a god of your own invention.
    Nothing to see here folks. Just keep moving along………

  48. falcon says:

    Some years ago, as I was cult proofing my daughter, I bought a copy of “The Beautiful Side of Evil” for her. It had the indented purpose that I had in buying it for her. Anyway, I found this presentation by the author and I think it’s worth watching. Continuing with my basic premise of questioning everything, I do this as I watch the video. None-the-less, I think there is some benefit here especially for those who are in Mormonism and asking questions. The basics message is to test what you are taught by the Word of God.

  49. Rick B says:

    Cattyjane, Read this article and tell me what you think. It talk about the O.T laws and should christains keep them.

  50. falcon says:

    Here’s a great line that exemplifies Ralph’s and other LDS folks thinking. It is that “intent” sanctifies their experiences and symbols.
    They are sincere and devout so naturally what they are into is holy and the truth. No it’s not their feelings that will reveal the truth nor will what they think are spiritual experiences. Anyone who claims another god and another Jesus, another spirit and another gospel aren’t covered by sincerity and “intent”. Intent does not sanctify that which is not holy, right and feels good. Symbols of the occult can’t be thought of being something else because of sincerity, feelings and intent.
    Who was Joseph Smith? Did he practice magic arts? Yes he did. Did he claim another god and another Jesus, spirit and gospel of salvation? You bet he did.
    So the choice is clear for Ralph and our other Mormon visitors. Will you cast off the shroud of deceit and come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ?
    We can’t make it any clearer. May God the Holy Spirit give life to these words.

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